Islamism and the Left

Discussion in 'Politics, Religion, Social Issues' started by aaronvan, Jan 24, 2015.

  1. aaronvan Suspended

    aaronvan

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    #1
    Here is a thoughtful piece by the great Michael Walzer, author of "Just and Unjust Wars" (an excellent work) and a number of other books. I suspect the title is the editor's--Walzer himself would have likely chosen "How to Rationally Think about Islamism."

    http://www.dissentmagazine.org/article/islamism-and-the-left
     
  2. citizenzen macrumors 65816

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    #2
    Your article's opening paragraph ...

    My view is that social evolution involves sideways and backward steps, as well as the ones that sometimes propel us forward.

    Anyone who thinks that we are now post-anything, and that some passé aspect of society is behind us, never to surface again, simply hasn't paid enough attention to history. In my experience I've learned that what we think are relics of society have a way of being dug up and revived again, and again ... torture being one example.

    So I question the premise, that the Left somehow thought this was all behind us, that the world had changed and was never going to change back. It's too simplistic and ignores the cyclical or variable nature of social change, especially on a world-wide scale.

    If I've noticed anything about the difference between liberals and conservatives, it's that liberals seem more capable of accepting and embracing the complexities of these issues, and not—as your author has done—divide things into simple black and white.

    Just a thought.
     
  3. obeygiant macrumors 68040

    obeygiant

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    #3
    So... were you going to read any more or did you just give up?
     
  4. citizenzen macrumors 65816

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    #4
    How can you say I'm giving up when I'm here talking about it?

    I talked about the article.

    You talked about me.

    Do you have anything to say about the subject of the thread?
     
  5. Huntn macrumors G5

    Huntn

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    #5
    I have not yet read the article, but from a general perspective, religious conflict boils down to peaceful coexistence, tolerance or intolerance. The West has been meddling in the Middle East for decades. Our hands are not clean, but neither is any intolerant religious group who can't bring themselves to live and let live, nor to allow any dissent or questioning of religious dogma without declaring severe punishments or even death sentences. If the goal of any group is to forcibly convert the human race to religion X, then we have conflict on our hands and the usually human solution is extermination.

    Now I can look at the US and although I think there are some groups trying to turn us into a Christian theocracy, for the most part we are a nation including millions of Muslims who have illustrated we can live and let live.
     
  6. b0fh666 macrumors 6502a

    b0fh666

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  7. samiwas macrumors 65816

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    #8
    Oh, man. Bet that one took a long time to come up with. Got any other original gems?
     
  8. sim667 macrumors 65816

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    #9
    So unintentionally ironic, in so many ways :D

    intellectuals ;)
     
  9. jnpy!$4g3cwk macrumors 65816

    jnpy!$4g3cwk

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    #10
    It is a kind of Haiku. ;)


    Back on the original article: I find it a little unclear. The author is constantly setting up strawmen "leftists", but, really, who are they? The opposite of a Right-Wing Authoritarian, or, Right-Wing Fundamentalist, is not "leftist", it is Liberal.
     
  10. Technarchy macrumors 603

    Technarchy

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    #11
    The problem with leftist intellectualism in academia currently is there is way too much trite, kitschy, shtick bereft of real science.

    I've sat through dozens of briefings on international affairs in the military and we've had many good professors with liberal personal politics who provided incredibly insightful presentations on group x in nation x, and historical context of group x's formulation and agenda.

    This is in stark contrast to your typical liberal so-called academic at generic university X, who's answer to everything is George Bush did it, blame fox news, Israel and "what about when Christians do XYZ". That might get you a spot on MSNBC, but it's laughable as far as real academics go.
     
  11. jnpy!$4g3cwk macrumors 65816

    jnpy!$4g3cwk

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    #12
    You may be correct-- I don't have any recent experience sitting in a liberal arts classroom. But, I wonder if your "liberal so-called academic at generic university X" is based on sitting in a classroom, or, what you watch on TV? Because they have a very strange "range of opinion" algorithm for selecting who to interview on TV on various political topics. And the interviews are too short for anything but sound bites to be transmitted anyway. I just have a feeling that the average professor is much better informed than it seems from watching TV. I could be wrong. My personal sample is way out of date.
     
  12. b0fh666 macrumors 6502a

    b0fh666

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    #13
    you americans are so lucky that your 'leftistis' are in fact liberals.

    ours are marxists... the 'rightists' are liberals, and there are no conservatives in politics.

    sad state of affairs.
     
  13. aerok macrumors 65816

    aerok

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    #14
    I really want your piece in this. Where are you from and which conservatives ideologies do you want to see developed there?
     
  14. sim667 macrumors 65816

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    #15

    regardless of whether it's a haiku, you spelt it wrong :D
     
  15. skunk macrumors G4

    skunk

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    #16
    It wasn't him.
     
  16. DUCKofD3ATH Suspended

    DUCKofD3ATH

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    #17
    This is the chewy caramel center of the article:

    So the Islamic revival is a kind of testing moment for the left: can we recognize and resist “the possibility of tyranny?” Some of us are trying to meet the test; many of us are actively failing it. One reason for this failure is the terrible fear of being called “Islamophobic.” Anti-Americanism and a radical version of cultural relativism also play an important part, but these are older pathologies. Here is something new: many leftists are so irrationally afraid of an irrational fear of Islam that they haven’t been able to consider the very good reasons for fearing Islamist zealots—and so they have difficulty explaining what’s going on in the world.

    And that's the double-think that intellectuals use when trying to understand why Liberals won't criticize Islam the way they do Christianity and Judaism.

    It's really very simple: Muslims will cut your head off if you diss them. Christians and Jews won't.

    Hence a Liberal will poke fun at most religions with abandon, but they practice self-censorship rather than kid Muslims about Mohammed having sexual relations with a nine-year-old child, because that would be dangerous.

    So we have the example of Barack Obama failing to go to Paris to stand in solidarity with other world leaders. Why? Was it because he was so "irrationally afraid of an irrational fear of Islam" that he stayed home rather than appear to be Islamophobic? Cha' right! More likely in his case it was "Je suis Chicken" rather than "Je suis Charlie".
     
  17. jnpy!$4g3cwk macrumors 65816

    jnpy!$4g3cwk

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    #18
    Now you have gone from being obtuse to being offensive. If the President's security staff veto something, as they surely did in this case, do you really want him to proceed anyway so that he doesn't look "chicken"? Really.

    I would suggest that Biden or Kerry should have been there, not (just) the ambassador.
     
  18. DUCKofD3ATH Suspended

    DUCKofD3ATH

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    #19
    I expect the president to stand up for what is right, not run for the hills because it might be risky. What about all those other world leaders who showed up? You admitting they're braver than BO?

    And the president's security staff can't veto anything or no president would be allowed out of the White House to run for reelection.

    BO should have been there, and there's no excuse for him not showing up. But I agree that even Biden or Kerry would have been better than just the ambassador.
     
  19. Happybunny macrumors 68000

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    #20
    In retrospect many people here in Europe are glad that NO high official from the USA was at the march.

    If they had turn up, it would have all been about THEM, this coupled to the fact that most American newspapers wouldn’t even print the cartoons would have made it a bit hypocritical.
     
  20. b0fh666 macrumors 6502a

    b0fh666

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    #21
    proto-country in question in brazil in south america.

    12 years of marxists in federal government going 16 (just reelected) and probably until there is nothing left. it went from a promising economy from a liberal government to pure crap. heading down the same road as venezuela, outlook not so good :p

    conservative ideas that i would like to see here : right to bear arms, as it is currently totally illegal but there are tons of illegal guns and the murder rate on the best parts of the country is 20:100k and on the bad ones is over 100:100k. if you're not a criminal you're basically sheep in a slaughterhouse.

    liberal ideas that won't be implemented either but would be good : tax reduction (we're over 50% of the GP but our infrastructure and public services are abysmal), state reduction, free market, yadda, yadda.

    anyway... you guys are lucky, believe me.

    cheers

    ----------

    don't sweat it, that's typical leftist 'argumentation', to point typos and such :cool:

    such inteLLectuality :p
     
  21. sim667 macrumors 65816

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    #22
    ooops. Sorry
     
  22. DUCKofD3ATH Suspended

    DUCKofD3ATH

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    #23
    You can always find people opposed to anything. Are the numbers significant?

    I agree. But BO didn't go and our mainstream media didn't print the cartoons, so here it's highlighted problems with Democrats/Liberals having gone all wobbly.
     
  23. Happybunny macrumors 68000

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    #24
    That is your major problem, to the outside world it's not about Democrat or Republican, it's about American Policy and how it effects them.
     
  24. DUCKofD3ATH Suspended

    DUCKofD3ATH

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    #25
    So you should be grateful I give you the true skinny about what's going on. The outside world needs to know that Democrats/Liberals are getting weak kneed about Islamic extremism.
     

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