IT division= Bullcrap

irmongoose

macrumors 68030
Original poster
Okay, I have recently noticed that most of these so called "IT divisions" don't know anything about computers except 'plug in the wire here, and plug in the other end there'. I mean, my friend told me the other day that his dad's company's IT division, when asked what firewire was, said it was the same thing as USB2, and that USB2 was just Microsoft's name for it. And this is a major, worldwide company he works for! That is absolutely unacceptable.

So.. any thoughts?





irmongoose
 

peterjhill

macrumors 65816
Apr 25, 2002
1,096
0
Seattle, WA
Re: IT division= Bullcrap

Originally posted by irmongoose
when asked what firewire was, said it was the same thing as USB2, and that USB2 was just Microsoft's name for it. And this is a major, worldwide company he works for! That is absolutely unacceptable.

So.. any thoughts?
Sure, if it not on a Microsoft Cert exam, why should they need to know it? During the tech boom, there were definitely people who got well paying jobs with no knowledege or experience, only the ability to pass a cert exam. I know someone who tells me that their IT director (of a medium sized nonprofit organization) is a complete idiot. He can't keep the email server running for more than a week. (First mistake is that he is probably running Exchange, the memory leaker of all memory leakers). The guy is a complete idiot. So if you are the IT director, are you going to hire someone that could do you job better in their sleep?

I am sorry about your plight, irmongoose. It is a sucky situation.
 

irmongoose

macrumors 68030
Original poster
Re: Re: IT division= Bullcrap

Originally posted by peterjhill


Sure, if it not on a Microsoft Cert exam, why should they need to know it? During the tech boom, there were definitely people who got well paying jobs with no knowledege or experience, only the ability to pass a cert exam. I know someone who tells me that their IT director (of a medium sized nonprofit organization) is a complete idiot. He can't keep the email server running for more than a week. (First mistake is that he is probably running Exchange, the memory leaker of all memory leakers). The guy is a complete idiot. So if you are the IT director, are you going to hire someone that could do you job better in their sleep?

I am sorry about your plight, irmongoose. It is a sucky situation.
Exactly. These people just get these stupid certificates which teach them nothing but technology from 15 years ago, and they know NOTHING about what's going on now. Now, why and how is this accepted as an IT person? Why don't companies realise their fault and get people who actaully know something about the computers they are handling??



irmongoose
 

Mr. Anderson

Moderator emeritus
Nov 1, 2001
22,408
0
VA
Re: Re: Re: IT division= Bullcrap

Originally posted by irmongoose


Exactly. These people just get these stupid certificates which teach them nothing but technology from 15 years ago, and they know NOTHING about what's going on now. Now, why and how is this accepted as an IT person? Why don't companies realise their fault and get people who actaully know something about the computers they are handling??
Are you basing your whole argument on one single instances of stupidity? I'm sure not all 'IT Dept.' are going to have a problem knowing the difference between USB2 and Firewire.

I called my IT guy here at work, and he didn't have a problem telling me the difference.....

D :rolleyes:
 

irmongoose

macrumors 68030
Original poster
Re: Re: Re: Re: IT division= Bullcrap

Originally posted by dukestreet


Are you basing your whole argument on one single instances of stupidity? I'm sure not all 'IT Dept.' are going to have a problem knowing the difference between USB2 and Firewire.

I called my IT guy here at work, and he didn't have a problem telling me the difference.....

D :rolleyes:
Of course not. I'm not that stupid, ya know... (although I might be sometimes :p ). I have seen many cases of these IT people not knowing what we know as basics of computing. And yah I'm not saying that ALL the IT people are stupid, but I am saying that I have seen a substantial amount of IT people, and that's only those who I have seen, who don't know anything.

Okay, for instance, one IT guy who I know didn't even know what a CD-R was until I told him.



irmongoose
 

peterjhill

macrumors 65816
Apr 25, 2002
1,096
0
Seattle, WA
Re: Re: Re: Re: IT division= Bullcrap

Originally posted by dukestreet


Are you basing your whole argument on one single instances of stupidity? I'm sure not all 'IT Dept.' are going to have a problem knowing the difference between USB2 and Firewire.

I called my IT guy here at work, and he didn't have a problem telling me the difference.....

D :rolleyes:
It depends so much on the organization, and I believe, most importantly, the tech savviness of the upper management. I am part of an IT department, more or less. The majority of our directors are very much technical gurus. When prospective employees are being considered, all of them have their second round interviews with the directors and the positions manager. The two directors I work the closest with are right on the bleeding edge of knowledge, and they don't get that knowledge by reading trade magazines, they get it by reading RFCs and Internet Drafts. I am extremely lucky to be working in such an organization, so much so, that I don't think I would want to work for someone who didn't have a grasp of the technology. It would probably be easier for a lazy person to work for a moron, but I like the challenge of trying to exceed the expectations of my employeer.

Working in a bad IT department would be depressing to me. I am Mr. Tangential, if readers have not figured it out, I can spin a tangent from most anything to anywhere, so here is one. In the excellent book, Ender's Game, the main character is part of different "armies" one of them is run by a lazy idiot who rules by intimidation, when the main character gets his own army, he is able to provide strong leadership and bring out the best in his "soldiers" That is what a good management team can provide.
 

jefhatfield

Retired
Jul 9, 2000
8,803
0
Re: Re: Re: IT division= Bullcrap

Originally posted by irmongoose


Exactly. These people just get these stupid certificates which teach them nothing but technology from 15 years ago, and they know NOTHING about what's going on now. Now, why and how is this accepted as an IT person? Why don't companies realise their fault and get people who actaully know something about the computers they are handling??



irmongoose
in silicon valley, the IT people are saavy and understand the problems you are explaining

before i was an IT person, i was an HR person out of college and we in northern california knew IT was more than degrees and certs

that is why, after meeting literally thousands of IT people in silicon valley, i have met only one person with a CS degree

and most don't have certifications either

experience and working with the software is the key and if you are going into the field, realize knowledge is 99 percent of the game, not degrees or certifications or passing tests made by educators

as a volunteer teacher, i see this as the biggest problem of IT education where colleges and tech schools have absolutely no clue...and worse, they don't give a rat's ass...they like to stay within their comfort zone

and if you happen to be a teacher and even want to suggest a change, you will lose your job instantly

IT pioneers will continue to be like bill gates, mike dell, steve jobs, shawn fanning, larry ellison, paul allen, and others who do not have degrees or certifications
 

jefhatfield

Retired
Jul 9, 2000
8,803
0
i was a this great party with grad school educators in computer science, and while these guys really know their theory based stuff better than anyone, most won't even know what usb or firewire is

they do a lot of their work on command screen only and are on 486/pentium/old sun based machines, at least until president bush' budget comes thru to up their funding for their government/military school

to most of these guys, gui is too strange and they never get it...a human brain can only hold so much info in it at one time and at their age, they have reached tenure and do not want to learn new stuff...there is no need since they will be retired before they see what we see every day as mac fans using new machines like G4s and P4s (yes, intel)
 

robbieduncan

Moderator emeritus
Jul 24, 2002
24,597
60
Harrogate
Depending on what you mean by an IT division you may be being rather short sighted. For example where I work we develop a load of our software internally and therefore have a huge number of "IT" staff. Now a normal user probably sees the the Hell Desk as the "IT Division". These guys are real muppets: When I started I could not log into my PC (Account locked). Phoned the help desk, explained hte problem slowly and clearly. The muppet then said "Can you send me an email about that". Well no. Now the "real" IT staff like me are a varied lot. If you asked some of us the difference we would be able to tell you straight away. Then there are career programmers who know a specific language or business related area, but actually know vey little about computers. Then you have the main frame guys who probably don't care, or know very much about anything that weights less than one ton!
 

macktheknife

macrumors 6502a
Jan 24, 2002
639
0
It always depends on the company and their arrangements. If the company outsourced its IT needs, most of the time the people on the phone are glorified customer support reps. However, that's not really a knock against them. Put yourself in their shoes: you get paid probably $15/hour or so and you were only trained to follow the some procedures ("send me an e-mail of the problem") when some guy calls you about x y z problem on his computer.

I knew of one case back in the boom when a dot.com hired this high-school grad and made him a six-figure IT manager. The dude, knew *nothing* about computers but was smart enough to have a friend in the company. He basically installed programs on a computer by reading the manual. And if it wasn't in the manual, it wasn't his problem.
 

edesignuk

Moderator emeritus
Mar 25, 2002
19,082
1
London, England
Sadly I have a simular story, where i work most of the 1st level (or frontline) support are clueless, sure, they all have their MCSE's, MCP's etc. But can't fix a damn thing! They're just people who are good at studying for an exam, period. :(
 

jefhatfield

Retired
Jul 9, 2000
8,803
0
Originally posted by edesignuk
Sadly I have a simular story, where i work most of the 1st level (or frontline) support are clueless, sure, they all have their MCSE's, MCP's etc. But can't fix a damn thing! They're just people who are good at studying for an exam, period. :(
in this field you have two basic groups...

1) degreed and certified guys who are good at getting pieces of paper on the wall

2) guys who know IT

i have met a small handful of people who fit both groups out of thousands of people in the field in silicon valley

it is really two different types of mindsets and the world needs both

one group works the field...and...

universities, colleges, and certified trade schools need their teachers to have one or more pieces of paper for the wall or they will not hire them, even if they are the next steve wozniak or steve jobs with this great idea

think of all the "papered/diploma" people who did not initially believe in apple, hp, or any of the other companies

both the IT field with its mostly self taught people and the IT educational field with mostly 4-8 year degreed teachers are giant and growing fields

...and the world will need plenty of both in years to come

one is not better than the other
 

evildead

macrumors 65816
Jun 18, 2001
1,275
0
WestCost, USA
in almost any company and any industry....

There is always going to be some one that doesnt know that much about their job. I have met many IT people that are really bad and I have met some that are very good. When I was working for a Univeristy, I saw some very strang IT stratagy and a TON of waste. Some of the probem was not the "IT Guy" it was the person that highered them on. The graduat Edu defpartment at my University is almost all Mac and they needed a full time IT guy to support them. They put in the request to Administration and they got one... prblem was.. the guy had never used a Mac before. He once told me that a Mac could not connect to the network.. becuase "Mac's cant talk TCP/IP". A friend of mine's mom is a Prof in that department so I would help her out now and then with her Mac. Word got out that I was a "Mac guy" and I started getting all kinds of Jop requests... problem was I didnt work there and I wasnt getting paid.... I was doing the other guys job for him. I had to stop walking in that building in fear of being dragged into something.

No... is it that the IT guy is a moron? Or is it that he was just not a good fit for the job? He has every WinBox running great... but thats it. The Administration (as bloted as it is) was the one that gave him the ok...
 

evildead

macrumors 65816
Jun 18, 2001
1,275
0
WestCost, USA
Re: IT division= Bullcrap

Originally posted by irmongoose
said it was the same thing as USB2, and that USB2 was just Microsoft's name for it.
irmongoose
Funny thing is... USB was made my IBM... not Microsoft.

FireWire has another name... 1904.. or something like that... its the generic name they use one most PC's. Apple invented that and any computer thats not a Apple, that has a FireWire port on it... the maker has to pay something like $1.50 per unit to Apple.
 

vniow

macrumors G4
Jul 18, 2002
10,288
0
I accidentally my whole location.
Originally posted by evildead


Funny thing is... USB was made my IBM... not Microsoft.

Actually, USB is an Intel technology, not IBM.


Originally posted by evildead
FireWire has another name... 1904.. or something like that... its the generic name they use one most PC's. Apple invented that and any computer thats not a Apple, that has a FireWire port on it... the maker has to pay something like $1.50 per unit to Apple.

It's 1394, not 1904.


And Apple recently made the liscence free to anyone aho wants to use the name 'Firewire' , may be the same with the technology itself but I'm not sure.
 

zarathustra

macrumors 6502a
Jul 16, 2002
770
0
Philadelphia, PA
Re: Re: IT division= Bullcrap

Originally posted by evildead


Funny thing is... USB was made my IBM... not Microsoft.

FireWire has another name... 1904.. or something like that... its the generic name they use one most PC's. Apple invented that and any computer thats not a Apple, that has a FireWire port on it... the maker has to pay something like $1.50 per unit to Apple.
It's IEEE 1394 - and no, they don't have to pay to have a FireWire port... They had to pay to use the name, I believe. Apple recently abolished the fee for using the logo and name (and the other fee, if applicable).

*** edit > OK, edvniow beat me to it. I am a slow typer. < edit ***
 

gbojim

macrumors 6502
Jan 30, 2002
353
0
A short story

you might find kind of funny that fits with a lot of the posts in this thread:

I've been working in IT for over 20 years. Other than College engineering, I had no specific certifications. I primarily do network and UNIX server work plus some programming and a ton of project management.

Several years ago, an old schoolmate called me to ask if I would be interested in teaching some part time college courses in my field of work. I said sure. The bloody college required that I have a MCSE cert before I would be allowed to teach any courses. Interesting thing was, the courses had nothing to do with MS software. Their big reason for the requirement... all the other training providers had instructors who were certified so I had to be as well for marketing purposes.
 

Sun Baked

macrumors G5
May 19, 2002
14,875
57
A swift kick in the nuts to the below average IT person may just get their brain working, if not at least you have the chance it'll keep them from reproducing.

Well they do say, give it a good swift kick if all else fails...
 

bousozoku

Moderator emeritus
Jun 25, 2002
13,951
3
Gone but not forgotten.
When I worked for a hospital outside Philadelphia, I found that the Director of M.I.S. had been the hospital's librarian. Her cousin, the manager, was an accountant at Bell Labs, and the D.P. Supervisor had been the switchboard operator.

The Director, who later became the CIO, got the job because the person in charge of the computer was unavailable and the hospital's system was down. The librarian said that she would try and she got the thing running by reading manual after manual and trying everything.

Years later, in meetings, if someone would ask a question she couldn't answer, she would throw acronyms or techno-babble at them to try to make them look foolish. "How will this help us print the statements?" "Well, the 5494 modulars are connected to the network using Token-Ring and the speed is 16MB/sec. and you can send the...." :D
 

mmmdreg

macrumors 65816
Apr 14, 2002
1,393
0
Sydney, Australia
A friend of mine was asked at his school by the techs to set up the network because they didn't know how to do it...my school's slightly better off but the computers do have many, many problems...and their solution seems to have been to only allow us to use a couple of programs and nothing else that we want to run...
 

jefhatfield

Retired
Jul 9, 2000
8,803
0
Re: in almost any company and any industry....

Originally posted by evildead
There is always going to be some one that doesnt know that much about their job. I have met many IT people that are really bad and I have met some that are very good. When I was working for a Univeristy, I saw some very strang IT stratagy and a TON of waste. Some of the probem was not the "IT Guy" it was the person that highered them on. The graduat Edu defpartment at my University is almost all Mac and they needed a full time IT guy to support them. They put in the request to Administration and they got one... prblem was.. the guy had never used a Mac before. He once told me that a Mac could not connect to the network.. becuase "Mac's cant talk TCP/IP". A friend of mine's mom is a Prof in that department so I would help her out now and then with her Mac. Word got out that I was a "Mac guy" and I started getting all kinds of Jop requests... problem was I didnt work there and I wasnt getting paid.... I was doing the other guys job for him. I had to stop walking in that building in fear of being dragged into something.

No... is it that the IT guy is a moron? Or is it that he was just not a good fit for the job? He has every WinBox running great... but thats it. The Administration (as bloted as it is) was the one that gave him the ok...
you answered your own question about the dilemna about a ton of waste...a full time mac support guy

LMAO

in the huge college lab which used to use macs for many years, the machines basically took care of themselves...it is the pcs that needed the constant care

you can teach a moron to support macs...pcs are difficult because of their relatively bad design and bad os

macs don' talk too well to pc networks because the problem is inherent in the windows server software and the tcp/ip problems are notorious and a pc IT guy usually blames the mac's os

well, guess what, buddy?:p
 

DeadlyBreakfast

macrumors regular
I'm a recent switcher and I love trying new things. I have quite a mix (Unix , Xenix , Linux Mac, BSD and M$ ( all flavors)) . We have alot of assembly equipt. As far as IT goes, I get alot of paper MCSE's and programmers. Its not very hard to weed them out. I try to allow a user to choose his/her flavor. Most ask for Windoze but the ones who ask for Linux or Macs will get no hesitation from me!!
 
Re: Re: in almost any company and any industry....

Originally posted by jefhatfield
macs don' talk too well to pc networks because the problem is inherent in the windows server software and the tcp/ip problems are notorious and a pc IT guy usually blames the mac's os
I've never had problems with Macs talking with PCs.

PC != Windows.

Linux, UNIX, etc, works great with Mac. Hell, Windows XP works great with Mac. Never had any problem. They're all network friendly.
 

jefhatfield

Retired
Jul 9, 2000
8,803
0
Re: Re: Re: in almost any company and any industry....

Originally posted by MacCoaster

I've never had problems with Macs talking with PCs.

PC != Windows.

Linux, UNIX, etc, works great with Mac. Hell, Windows XP works great with Mac. Never had any problem. They're all network friendly.
xp server (called .net server) is more friendly with macs than windows 2000 server, which was better than windows nt server 4.0

count your lucky stars that things work ok

i would like to see microsoft's server developers take apple more seriously:p
 

Chisholm

macrumors regular
May 31, 2002
242
11
Tuscaloosa, Alabama
Re: Re: Re: Re: IT division= Bullcrap

Originally posted by jefhatfield


in silicon valley, the IT people are saavy and understand the problems you are explaining

before i was an IT person, i was an HR person out of college and we in northern california knew IT was more than degrees and certs

that is why, after meeting literally thousands of IT people in silicon valley, i have met only one person with a CS degree

and most don't have certifications either

experience and working with the software is the key and if you are going into the field, realize knowledge is 99 percent of the game, not degrees or certifications or passing tests made by educators

as a volunteer teacher, i see this as the biggest problem of IT education where colleges and tech schools have absolutely no clue...and worse, they don't give a rat's ass...they like to stay within their comfort zone

and if you happen to be a teacher and even want to suggest a change, you will lose your job instantly

IT pioneers will continue to be like bill gates, mike dell, steve jobs, shawn fanning, larry ellison, paul allen, and others who do not have degrees or certifications
I was a workstudy/mac lab manager in a graphic design cpu lab for 3 years while I got my degree in elementary education. I got THAT position cuz I had just purchased my first mac a few months earlier and therefor had experience (I took the machine apart 20 minutes after getting it home, I'm just that kind of guy).

All my PC experience was from student teaching and having to fix the piece of Sh*t PC's that the schools had in the classrooms and libraries. Then I graduated and got my first teaching gig as a "technology teacher" in a sixth grade school. Then proration hit and the school system had to cut like 30 teacher units. I got the axe along with 29 or so fellow first year teachers. I was replaced by a P.E. coach/ bus driver.

Couldn't get a job teaching so I answered a university call for a computer network technician job. Got the job because:

1. I have a degree (not in computer science, Early Childhood and Elementary Education no less).
2. I had years of computer experience.
3. They figured if I could put up with a classroom of kids and make them understand technology, surely I could explain things to people with PhD's. (even our friggin' secretary has a PhD)

Here I am 4 years later lovin' on my job! Funny though, I made over 28K my first year teaching and now after 3 pay raises and 4 years I make just over 27K. And don't get the summer off anymore!

Certification and education aren't everything, but they have their place sometimes. Where that place is, well I don't know, suppose its different for everyone.

anyway, sorry for the tangent.

cheers!
-John