It's even worse than Wisconsin in Ohio

Discussion in 'Politics, Religion, Social Issues' started by leekohler, Mar 3, 2011.

  1. leekohler macrumors G5

    leekohler

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    #1
    WTF is wrong with Ohio? WTF is wrong with Republicans? Hey Republicans, guess what? You're signing your political death warrants, and you're going to contnue to drive jobs and people from Ohio.

    Folks in Ohio, get off your butts and fight this! :mad:

    http://www.toledoonthemove.com/neighborhood/story.aspx?id=588466
     
  2. NT1440 macrumors G4

    NT1440

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    #2
    Wow. This is the boldest the GOP has been in a while. Not even trying to hide the fact that they're just trying to do away with union rights and the right to organize.:mad:

    Fines for strikes? Is there a link to the actual text of this bill anywhere?
     
  3. Thomas Veil macrumors 68020

    Thomas Veil

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    #3
    While it's nominally leaving the unions intact, it's telling them that they have no more power over their health care benefits or pensions. Those can be deeply cut or taken away at any time. Other things, like hours worked and days off, will be non-negotiable as well. And while the union is still free to negotiate wages, the single real bargaining tool they have -- striking -- would now be a jailable offense. So they really have no power to negotiate wages either. Everything will essentially be "take it or leave it."

    I agree, this is going to swing the state back to the Democrats in 2012. And yes, unless this is defeated in the courts or by a ballot initiative, anybody who wants to be a teacher or a cop or whatever will look elsewhere, outside of Ohio.

    This is going to be terrible for our economy.
     
  4. leekohler, Mar 3, 2011
    Last edited: Mar 3, 2011

    leekohler thread starter macrumors G5

    leekohler

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    #4
    Screw the fines. The jail time is what offends me. Not only that, but they tacked on yet another antigay measure in the bill. The Republicans are committing political suicide.

    These are your candidates, Tea party. Look what you've done.

    I have a few friends who are teachers in Ohio. They're ready to pack their bags if this goes through. They will lose their best and brightest, not their worst. Tea Party, this is what you've done. You will be leaving office in droves next election cycle, mark my words.
     
  5. Thomas Veil macrumors 68020

    Thomas Veil

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    #5
    Just found out about the anti-gay stuff myself. This be the language:

    And this be the entire bill.

    These people are completely out of control (per NT1440).
     
  6. 63dot macrumors 603

    63dot

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    #6
    The GOP is self-destructing at the worst possible time for future prospects in their party for 2012.

    In a few months, GOP candidates will be starting their campaigns and the GOP today has just given individual candidates reasons to finger point at each other in what will probably be some vicious primaries.

    And we all know how that will go. At least us liberals can fight like cats and dogs in the democratic, green, and left-leaning parties and make up in time for the election, but GOP primary opponents have traditionally held grudges against each other for life.

    I don't know if establishment republicans will try and blame tea party republicans for the meltdown or vice versa, but without a unified front, the GOP is sunk nationwide for 2012.

    After this set of debacles, it will be pretty easy to see the GOP does not have its nations interests at stake.
     
  7. KingYaba macrumors 68040

    KingYaba

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    #7
    Fines and jail time? What a crock of ****. Negotiate, by all means, if the union pay needs to be cut back to balance a state budget, but this bill goes too far.

    Congress shall make no law prohibiting the right of the people to peacefully assemble....
     
  8. leekohler thread starter macrumors G5

    leekohler

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    #8
    I knew we would see crap like this, after some of the biggest extremists in the party got elected, but I had no idea it would be this bad. Have fun while you can Republicans, it will be short-lived.
     
  9. yg17 macrumors G5

    yg17

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    #9
    The Tea Party will be kicked out of office just as quickly as they were voted in. Hopefully a Democratic wave will come in 2012 and undo most of this crap.
     
  10. fivepoint macrumors 65816

    fivepoint

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    #10
    Go Ohio! Crush the unions! Return to fiscal sanity. No more hiding behind a union... time to return to personal responsibility. Ohio today, Wisconsin tomorrow, who's next? Sweep the states clean, Tea Party!

    BTW, there is no 'RIGHT' to collective bargaining.
    Collective bargaining is a legislative privilege granted by friendly law makers in some localities which can be quickly and abruptly eliminated (as you've all just observed.)

    Public unions are idiotic. Imagine a private sector union where the union members themselves were able to contribute to the election and vote for the individual whom they'd be bargaining against. BRILLIANT! It's a conflict of interest - straight up.

    Interesting quote by Bill Gates recently: (thanks for the help twice in one day, Billy boy!)



    Hahaha, keep telling yourself that! http://www.gallup.com/poll/125066/State-States.aspx ;)
     
  11. mgguy macrumors 6502

    mgguy

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    #11
    I heard somewhere that federal employees are not able to collectively bargain for their benefits package. If this is true, why are recent states' attempts to restrict unionized bargaining seen as being so draconian, and why isn't there an outcry to give federal employees the same "rights"?
     
  12. KingYaba macrumors 68040

    KingYaba

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    #12
    The outcry, in this case, is the jail sentencing for striking.
     
  13. leekohler thread starter macrumors G5

    leekohler

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    #13
    Fivepoint- you act as if teachers make lots of money. The don't, even though they are required to have masters degrees. People understand if the belt is tight. People do NOT understand being denied the right to unionize and fight when they feel taken advantage of. NO ONE should ever be jailed for striking. That you support this is nothing short of sickening. I am absolutely disgusted. Just wait- you guys will get yours soon enough, trust me.

    BTW, I don;t know what your point was with that link, but it indicates for the most part that the political tide can tip quite easily.

    And Bill Gates said nothing about union busting. Fail to see your point there as well.

    Will federal employees be jailed if they unionize?
     
  14. fivepoint macrumors 65816

    fivepoint

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    #14
    That's true regarding federal employees. It's being labeled as draconian because that's how union thugs get their message across. They need to scare people in order to get their way. Scare or intimidate... and thankfully they aren't powerful enough to intimidate all of us at this point. Not that they aren't trying:

    [​IMG]

    "... Meticulous attention should be paid to the special relationships and obligations of public servants to the public itself and to the government. All Government employees should realize that the process of collective bargaining, as usually understood, cannot be transplanted into the public service. It has its distinct and insurmountable limitations ... The very nature and purposes of Government make it impossible for ... officials ... to bind the employer ... The employer is the whole people, who speak by means of laws enacted by their representatives ...

    "Particularly, I want to emphasize my conviction that militant tactics have no place in the functions of any organization of government employees. Upon employees in the federal service rests the obligation to serve the whole people ... This obligation is paramount ... A strike of public employees manifests nothing less than an intent ... to prevent or obstruct ... Government ... Such action, looking toward the paralysis of Government ... is unthinkable and intolerable." -Franklin D. Roosevelt, President of the United States, and Progressive/Liberal Hero
     
  15. fivepoint macrumors 65816

    fivepoint

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    #15
    Lee, my wife is a teacher. I'm quite aware of how much they make. For the record, they aren't required to have masters degrees (where do you get this stuff?). Most importantly, without thuggish unions, good teachers like my wife would make far more money than they do today, while the bad ones would make less or be fired. Good riddance. Our students deserve better. If you can't hack it, get another job.

    Have you seen the movie 'Waiting for Superman' by chance, Lee?

    Bill Gates accurately pointed out the failure of allowing the unionization of public employees and the incredible damage it's causing our state budgets. Thankfully, people like him are willing to look at the facts and report honestly on the situation instead of pretending like the government can produce miracles out of thin air or that money grows on trees.
     
  16. leekohler, Mar 3, 2011
    Last edited: Mar 3, 2011

    leekohler thread starter macrumors G5

    leekohler

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    #16
    My mistake about the masters, I was thinking of a friend of mine who wanted to teach college. I can admit my mistakes fivepoint, can you? And you honestly believe that teachers who strike should be jailed? REALLY? And you claim to believe in freedom. I can only assume that since you support this bill that you also support the antigay measure attached to it. And if you think Republicans in government will pay your wife more, you're fooling yourself. Watch what happens to teachers pay if this goes through.

    Then find the Bill Gates quote, fivepoint. Should be easy if it exists. And I couldn't care less what he thinks anyway. BTW- if we had universal health care, these problems would largely disappear.
     
  17. samiwas macrumors 65816

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    #17
    You act as if all unions are criminal operations existing solely to crush the REAL Americans running business. There are plenty of unions out there that ARE like that. Go check with the IATSE union in Rhode Island (and I'm a member of IATSE, but not in Rhode Island). But I'm pretty sure that teachers unions are generally not being backed with thug tactics.

    But, as we know, anything that goes against your free-market utopia of everyone but upper management getting paid minimalistic third-world wages and having no say whatsoever in their employed life is considered thuggery.

    The company I work for is moving very quickly towards losing a lot of their people because they are more and more starting to treat us like pawns rather than the close-knit group we used to be. We're a little small to unionize...but in your opinion, we should have no right at all to stand up together against them and demand better treatment, right? Just go find different jobs?

    It's really too bad that it's so easy to get banned around here.
     
  18. hulugu macrumors 68000

    hulugu

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    #18
    Collective bargaining is a legislative privilege granted by friendly law makers in some localities which can be quickly and abruptly eliminated (as you've all just observed.)[/QUOTE]

    It's interesting, AFAICT, the courts have mainly avoided creating a 'right' to collective bargaining and have remaindered this structure to legislative acts like the NLRB.

    A conflict of interest? I disagree, this is akin to being on the hiring committee for your boss—a common corporate and university structure. Extend the logic of this and you're effectively arguing that no public employee, from police officer to NHS doctor should be able to vote.

    What's important about the conflict in a conflict of interest is whether or not the union's interest runs counter to the government's, which is at the very least arguable.

    How? Without the union, bad teachers would presumably be fired, but how would this raise wages directly or indirectly?

    Many have argued that this is a piece of agitprop and is not a fair documentary.

    I'm not so sure you should declare the genius of Gates on a Mac forum. ;)

    Are you aware of the number of school districts that have unions and those that do not and what the test scores for ACT/SAT are? I'm wondering if there's at least a correlative connection between the two. Adding in the variable of education spending might also be useful.

    Might have to go to mass media complete.
     
  19. Eraserhead, Mar 4, 2011
    Last edited: Mar 4, 2011

    Eraserhead macrumors G4

    Eraserhead

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    #19
    Firing incompetent teachers sounds like a great idea, but it doesn't require unions to be disbanded to achieve. The British teachers unions aren't that strong, and still we have huge problems getting rid of poor teachers.

    Jail time for strikers is bizarre and totally unacceptable.

    Additionally there is no way you can claim that it is a "individual liberty" position to hold to be for jailing strikers.
     
  20. leekohler thread starter macrumors G5

    leekohler

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    #20
    You should know by noe that fivepoint is only interested in individual freedom when it's an issue he agrees with.
     
  21. Thomas Veil macrumors 68020

    Thomas Veil

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    #21
    I'm sorry, but I just have to smile at some of this. It manages to be self-contradictory and over the top, all in just nine words. I could almost see you waving your pom-pons while you wrote it.

    Sorry, but you guys are self-destructing, and while it's painful to watch what you're doing to the economy and to good, hard-working people, at least we're seeing you implode in ways far greater than we'd ever dreamed. Keep watching those polls. You're doing everything you can to help the Democrats in 2012.

    Oh, and please stop getting tea stains all over my flag.
     
  22. mcrain, Mar 4, 2011
    Last edited: Mar 4, 2011

    mcrain macrumors 68000

    mcrain

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    #22
    Ahh, but if it is OK for the Republican Party to "sweep the states clean" you better keep your mouth shut when their actions here result in Democratic majorities and we sweep collective bargaining into a national right and make collective bargaining a far easier thing to obtain and make it a criminal act for any business or business owner to interfer with employees rights to organize unions. You're using your "friendly lawmakers" to launch a sneak attack on unions. Don't be surprised when this bites you in the butt.

    Actually, if she were any good, wouldn't she be teaching in a private school and making more money? Since she isn't, the evidence clearly shows she must be unqualified, and only have a job where she is rotting the minds of kids because of the union. Right? She's the problem, not all the good teachers she's keeping down.

    (edit) In case anyone thinks I have said anything mean about FP's wife, keep in mind the only thing I know about her is that she's a teacher in a union.
     
  23. mrkramer macrumors 603

    mrkramer

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    #23
    So why is your wife part of the Union? Why doesn't she listen to your wise ideas and go make more money in a private school? If she's really a good teacher then she should be able to according to your logic.
     
  24. Huntn macrumors G5

    Huntn

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    #24
    Strikes would be illegal? This is why the Republican Party can never be allowed to lead this country. Land Of The Free my arse. Unions are made up of people who want some control over their professions (whatever it is) and their lives. Conservatives/Republican's will never be happy if lowly workers have some control. They can take what we give them and they'd better be happy with it or else.
     
  25. leekohler thread starter macrumors G5

    leekohler

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    #25
    That's my company's attitude. We need less of that kind of thing, not more. That attitude is spreading too.
     

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