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iTunes 5 and DRM?

MacRumors

macrumors bot
Original poster
Apr 12, 2001
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MacBidouille.com has published an interesting rumor regarding stricter Digital Rights Management (DRM) possibly coming to iTunes 5.

Apple's current DRM process allows songs to be burnt to CDs -- which may then be played or re-reripped as any "normal" CD can.

According to MacBidouille:

To solve this crucial issue, Apple is reported to have taken a licence from Verance.

According to Verance's site, they offer an interesting watermark system which embeds "inaudible yet identifiable digital codes into an audio waveform". Such a watermark system would prevent Verance-aware systems from copying those files (unless otherwise allowed) -- though any system would be able to play them. Presumably, non-Verance aware systems would ignore the watermarks and allow you to rip the songs.

MacBidouille states that this protection would be particularly used in the Audio DVD format which is also due to be supported in iTunes 5 as well as the iTunes Music Store. DVD Audio claims to offer "at least twice the sound quality of audio CD." Verance indicates that its technology was selected as the industry standard for DVD-Audio.

While MacBidouille's report implies that this protection system would be used by Apple in Audio CDs, presumably only Verance-aware systems would enforce it.

On the other hand it appears any official DVD-Audio system (Apple's or otherwise) will contain both the Watermark system as well as a key-encryption. More Info: DVD-Audio Copy Protection

Additional Info: DVD Audio Watermarking controversy.

Note: Macbidouille has had a variable history of accuracy, and gives no indication as to the confidence of this report.
 

merges

macrumors member
Jul 11, 2002
86
0
Seems like an interesting solution... the question is, will a standard copy protection system be adopted by *everyone* in the industry?
 
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LethalWolfe

macrumors G3
Jan 11, 2002
9,368
119
Los Angeles
Interesting.

I'm glad to hear that that iTMS and iTunes will support DVD-A. Hopefully that means that higher quality songs will be able to be purchased.


Lethal
 
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sluthy

macrumors regular
May 13, 2002
181
1
Bundaberg, Qld. Australia
As long as normal off-the-shelf CDs don't have this, I'm fine. Any copy-protection on those CDs will result in me boycotting it. I already refuse to buy any album with EMI's CopyControl on it - it's a shame when technology will stop be from buying Ben Harper and Norah Jones.
 
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DRM is inevitable, no matter how much we hate it. Apple never said they were against DRM, but they said that they would do it if there were a proper solution, IIRC. Maybe they have found out how to do it properly.

Thank god I'm deaf so I won't have to worry about this crap. :p Just kidding. I know DRM is scary, but realistically, it's inevitable. :(
 
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arn

macrumors god
Staff member
Apr 9, 2001
15,650
4,462
Originally posted by ZildjianKX
Just another reason not to use iTunes and to buy REAL CDs...

I sit there are write up a full report on it, and people still just have knee jerk reactions. :)

My take is that while it's possible that Apple may use it on the audio-cd's... it doesn't seem likely -- as every other CD-player/ripper ignores it. It makes more sense they are using it for DVDAudio.

It seems _all_ DVDAudio players will be required to use this new protection. Much like all DVD-Players must enforce CSS.

arn
 
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dguisinger

macrumors 6502a
Jul 25, 2002
840
1,211
Originally posted by arn
damnit, I sit there are write up a full report on it, and people still just have knee jerk reactions.

My take is that while it's possible that Apple may use it on the audio-cd's... it doesn't seem likely -- as every other CD-player/ripper ignores it. It makes more sense they are using it for DVDAudio.

It seems _all_ DVDAudio players will be required to use this new protection. Much like all DVD-Players must enforce CSS.

arn

Arn,

But could iTunes refuse to play MP3s ripped from CDs that contain the water mark? Thus the MP3 is bad if ripped and used with aware players. Or, is this a watermark that becomes more visible under compression and makes the MP3 less that satisfying?
 
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arn

macrumors god
Staff member
Apr 9, 2001
15,650
4,462
Originally posted by dguisinger
Arn,

But could iTunes refuse to play MP3s ripped from CDs that contain the water mark? Thus the MP3 is bad if ripped and used with aware players. Or, is this a watermark that becomes more visible under compression and makes the MP3 less that satisfying?

interesting point.

suppsedly, the watermark stays in tact through the mp3 encoding process. So, yes, an watermarked MP3 wouldn't be able to play on an iTunes that enforced it.

(all theoretical)

... but any other "usual" MP3 player would. That's why it makes sense for something like DVD's or DVDAudio where there's presumably a governing licensing group that controls it.

MP3, however, was born DRM free.... so none of the apps/players support it.

arn
 
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dguisinger

macrumors 6502a
Jul 25, 2002
840
1,211
Originally posted by whfsdude
Ugh Apple! People don't respond well to force. I won't use the iTunes Music Store anymore if I can't re-rip into AAC.

Heh, maybe its a good thing I didn't backup my collection before my system got wiped clean last night. Who knows, maybe you wont be able to use backups in the future.

I'm still pissed that I lost my music and there isn't an economical way to replace music I already paid for. With a subscription service, that would never matter.
 
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mr.v

macrumors newbie
Jul 13, 2003
2
0
audio watermark

If people want 2x the sound quality, why would they rip it to mp3 or Acc.
Acc is better but I've still heard it make a mess of some cymbals and low bass frequencies. Have you seen the price of a sony SACD player! If people can afford that I am sure they don't mind paying for the cds. The music industry is entering a mess right now. Let's hope it gets better :)

Why do I still buy cd's? well It's more than just the source quality, Album Artwork, Liner Notes, Photos.
Nothing beats the whole package when it's an album you love.

Sometimes I think the music industry may forget that maybe the reason people aren't buying as much music is because the there are so many crappy releases. These days notice when there is a new Hit it only lasts a week and the artist is gone.
Hopefully people will get into musicianship and making solid tunes
that last again. Instead of what can we sell this week attitude/limited scope :-(

Sorry for the long post, this is frustrating
 
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LethalWolfe

macrumors G3
Jan 11, 2002
9,368
119
Los Angeles
Originally posted by whfsdude
Ugh Apple! People don't respond well to force. I won't use the iTunes Music Store anymore if I can't re-rip into AAC.

I'm confused. You want to purchase songs from iTMS, burn them onto a CD, then rip those songs into iTunes? And you won't use iTMS if you can't do that? Am I understanding you or am I confused?


Lethal
 
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BaghdadBob

macrumors 6502a
Apr 13, 2003
810
0
Gorgeous, WA
I'm with arn that I just don't think this is highly likely. In fact, move it to page 2.

It would be a pointless addition IMO. MacB is so lame.
 
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Nermal

Moderator
Staff member
Dec 7, 2002
19,027
1,488
New Zealand
So who rated this positive?

Anyway, I'm against all sorts of DRM. If Apple gives us iTunes 5 with DRM (that can't be switched off), then I'll just use 4 until there's a way around it.
 
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Mosco

macrumors regular
May 26, 2002
242
39
Re: audio watermark

Originally posted by mr.v
Have you seen the price of a sony SACD player! If people can afford that I am sure they don't mind paying for the cds. The music industry is entering a mess right now. Let's hope it gets better :)

Its only 229 for a 5 changer that plays CDs, DVDs, and SA Cds. Thats not that bad.

Panasonic has one for less than that. I think DVD-Audio is the same way.

I think this program will be good if it will allow us to play DVD-Audio in our macs. With the G5s coming with Digital Out and devices like the Sonica, this would be save people from having to buy one at all.

And if they used this in ITMS, we don't know how. They could make it so people could re-rip their songs in AAC it they enter their account info.
 
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nuckinfutz

macrumors 603
Jul 3, 2002
5,502
314
Middle Earth
Re: Re: audio watermark

Originally posted by Mosco
Its only 229 for a 5 changer that plays CDs, DVDs, and SA Cds. Thats not that bad.

Panasonic has one for less than that. I think DVD-Audio is the same way.

I think this program will be good if it will allow us to play DVD-Audio in our macs. With the G5s coming with Digital Out and devices like the Sonica, this would be save people from having to buy one at all.

And if they used this in ITMS, we don't know how. They could make it so people could re-rip their songs in AAC it they enter their account info.

DVD-Audio cannot be output through Toslink. Only the DTS/Dolby Digital can be output.

$229 ? How about a DVD/SACD/DVD-Audio player
here to get things set off right. Save your $50 for some iTunes Tracks!!! :D
 
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whfsdude

macrumors 6502a
Jan 20, 2002
562
3
Washington DC
Originally posted by LethalWolfe
I'm confused. You want to purchase songs from iTMS, burn them onto a CD, then rip those songs into iTunes? And you won't use iTMS if you can't do that? Am I understanding you or am I confused?


Lethal


Yeah, I know you are going to say that is crazy but my dad needs the AAC without DRM for his peecee.

Second so I can share my music with friends :)
 
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Mosco

macrumors regular
May 26, 2002
242
39
Re: Re: Re: audio watermark

Originally posted by nuckinfutz
DVD-Audio cannot be output through Toslink. Only the DTS/Dolby Digital can be output.

$229 ? How about a DVD/SACD/DVD-Audio player
here to get things set off right. Save your $50 for some iTunes Tracks!!! :D

So maybe something like a M-Audio revolution would be better then. Direct 5.1 from the mac. I know that you can do that with the Audigy 2(play DVD-Audio that is).

Isn't most DVD-Audio just PCM though? Depending on the bit rate, wouldn't a receiver be able to output that, or would it only be in 2 channels and not 5.1?
 
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Mosco

macrumors regular
May 26, 2002
242
39
Originally posted by whfsdude
Yeah, I know you are going to say that is crazy but my dad needs the AAC without DRM for his peecee.

Second so I can share my music with friends :)

By the time Itunes 5 comes out, i would think that Itunes for windows would be out which would pretty much fix your problem as you could just authorize the PC to play the files.
 
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Analog Kid

macrumors 603
Mar 4, 2003
5,689
4,279
Originally posted by MacCoaster
DRM is inevitable, no matter how much we hate it. ... I know DRM is scary, but realistically, it's inevitable. :(

Nothing is inevitable. DRM will only take hold if consumers continue to act like sheep and let the Recording Industry Ass. of America herd them into their pens.

Remember when software used to be copy protected? Then an arms race started with copy protection and cracking apps. Consumers got fed up with the hassle of locked discs and having to enable their programs every time they fired them up. Eventually companies stopped locking them (at least until the recent return of key-codes).

Look what happened to Intuit when they tried to lock Turbo-tax.

I've got nothing against protecting the value of your work. I do have something against price-fixing. I really think the recent rise in piracy has been fueled by obscene CD prices. Just look at a market like Russia where just about all CDs/DVDs are black market-- not surprising when you insist on selling an hour of music for $20 in a country where the average salary is something like $50 a month...

Same in China.

In the US, most of the file swapping is done among students-- another low income group.

I've got a pretty extensive CD collection (I've filled a 20GB iPod legally). Most of those where bought for $7-$10 in Boston when there was a price-war going on between Tower and Newbury Comics. True competition brought the prices into a range I considered reasonable.

Since then I've become a professional engineer with a decent salary and my collection has grown much more slowly because I find $15 CDs offensive.

Not surprisingly, the industry has missed the boat entirely on this. Remember how scared they were of VCRs? Now most of their revenue comes from tape rentals.

I do think watermarking is the right answer to this, but only as a tool for tracing egregious offenders, not as a locking mechanism. If you find a song online that has my watermark on it (not a feature of this system), get in touch with Apple (who has my credit card data) and track me down. Don't prevent me from mixing a disc for my girlfriend...
 
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