Ivory Bans are against the second amendment according to the NRA

Discussion in 'Politics, Religion, Social Issues' started by steve knight, Dec 23, 2014.

  1. steve knight Suspended

    steve knight

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    #1
    So children are pk if they die for the second amendment now elephants are ok to die for out rights too?

    https://www.thedodo.com/nra-comes-out-against-ivory-ba-454266136.html
    Just one month after the White House announced a proposed commercial ban on the ivory trade in the United States, the National Rifle Association (NRA) has announced plans to oppose the ban, and the NRA is speaking out, saying that the ban would prevent some gun owners from selling their firearms that contain ivory. In a statement on their website, the 1.3 million-member-strong organization writes:

    Any firearm, firearm accessory, or knife that contains ivory, no matter how big or small, would not be able to be sold in the United States, unless it is more than 100 years old. This means if your shotgun has an ivory bead or inlay, your revolver or pistol has ivory grips, your knife has an ivory handle, or if your firearm accessories, such as cleaning tools that contain any ivory, the item would be illegal to sell.
    The NRA is calling on its members to flood the White House and Congress with phone calls and emails to “let them know you oppose the ban on commercial sale and trade of legally owned firearms with ivory components.”
     
  2. jkcerda macrumors 6502

    jkcerda

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    #2
    what the hell does children dying have to do with this?
    elephants will die regardless , just HOW will they know what is over 100 years old if ivory is not date stamped? if you already have it & legally OWN it, why should it be illegal for you to sell/transfer it?

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    from link
    did the ivory have a date stamp on it? :rolleyes:
     
  3. steve knight thread starter Suspended

    steve knight

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    #3
    that nothing is more important to the NRA then guns. kids, elephants whatever.
     
  4. pdjudd macrumors 601

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    Gun buyers/experts have a good way of knowing how old the guns are. Usually they can tell antiques from modern guns. I bet it’s pretty hard to get ivory in newer guns.

    I bet that Ivory ages too. Just a guess.
     
  5. jkcerda macrumors 6502

    jkcerda

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    if you say so

    how old the gun is happens to be irrelevant, you can put old ivory on a new gun by having a gunsmith work on it if you provide the ivory.

    so we are going to have a carbon dating department for the ivory?

    i completely get the need to protect elephants & stop the illegal ivory trade, but like many things law makers have no clue as to what needs to be done, this has the potential to make felons/criminals out of people who posses ivory regardless of when they bought it, not just gun owners.
     
  6. pdjudd macrumors 601

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    #6
    Currently it is, if the gun is ivory clad and is over 100 years old it would be legal. (bribable covered as an antique). Other wise not.

    You said it yourself, the person would have to provide the ivory. At best the gunmaker *should* keep a record of the repair (as well as the person) and the alleged source of the ivory.

    Anyhow, if the ivory isn’t OEM (in bother words inherent to the gun), it has absolutely nothing to do with the 2nd amendment at all period. Nowhere in the constitution does it talk about cosmetic features of a gun being prevented and there is no way we can we say that the founders cared about them either.

    It’s enough to keep the current restrictions in place. Given that ivory is so strictly controlled, there is no need to possess it outside of part of an antique that predates the passage of protection laws.
     
  7. jkcerda macrumors 6502

    jkcerda

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    ok

    how many records do you currently have of things you purchased before 1990?

    under this misguided law, its up to YOU to prove you are innocent. this country used to be the other way around, innocent till proven guilty. now its guilty until you prove otherwise under stupid laws.
     
  8. pdjudd macrumors 601

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    If I was going to import something from another country, I would hope that I would keep records of that purchase to make sure it was legal at the time of purchase. Like say a customs form of some kind or something.

    But that might just be me. Of course I don’t own any ivory nor do I intend to ever purchase it.

    I think we can agree that it has nothing to do with the second amendment since the 2nd amendment doesn’t have anything to do with what the gun is clad or inlaid with.
     
  9. jkcerda macrumors 6502

    jkcerda

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    #9
    so you know the future enough to know such a law would pass, 24 years into the future?
    again, how many receipts/documents do you have from things you bought since 1990 & before?
     
  10. TimelessOne macrumors regular

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    Ok with out that proof please tell me how you can prevent the trade of Ivory?

    Otherwise I can just "claim" that I got it legally before 1990 and since there are no records to prove otherwise .....

    Something tell me that some people in the NRA have a lot of guns with questionable source ivery on their guns and they know it. This would fry them being able to sell it. But the law would really drive up the price of guns that have the paper work.

    As for old paper work like that. I have several some of them older than me dating back to the and 50's. Original bill of sale of 1950's pickup truck to be exact. I believe I am the 3rd one who has had that passed along. Lost track as it is a family item and it gets moved around. On high value items which an ivory gun would of been and still is most people should hold on to that paper work. Are you telling me that you do not hold on to high value paper work. It tends to go in a safe of some time and sit there never to be looked at again until you need it.
     
  11. lostngone macrumors demi-god

    lostngone

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    #11

    What does "pk" mean?
     
  12. jkcerda macrumors 6502

    jkcerda

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    From link
    . Kill the import. I don't support making criminals out of people simply because they lost their paper work . This applies more than gun owners. It applies to ANYONE who owns ivory . The proof requirement is NEW.
     
  13. TimelessOne macrumors regular

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    Same answer as before. How would you be able to tell the difference between legal import and smuggled in?

    You did not answer the claim.
    All no paper work does is prevent you from selling it.
     
  14. Bug-Creator macrumors 6502

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    I'm pretty sure all ivory parts of a gun can be easily replaced by wood, metal or plastics, so I really don't see how that would impact the 2nd as it only talks about the right to own guns not about the right to own tacky looking ones.

    Sure those guns will loose lot of their value, but again nothing bout resale values to be found in that constitution of yours.

    Heck it doesn't even say a single word about you being able to resale your legally owned guns, so the whole discussion becomes moot as it's only resale not ownership that is prohibited by this law.

    As for "innocent till prooven guilty", you may own and operate an old vehicle not up to current safety or emmision standards, but when you want to sell it you better have paperworks ready that prooves it's really it's age and not just old looking glued together from new parts.
     
  15. Happybunny macrumors 68000

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    That's easy I have family records, rolls of ownership/acquisition, land/property title deeds, going back to 1605.:p
     
  16. pdjudd macrumors 601

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    Again, your links cover import - not purchases in general. You care arguing a hypothetical situation that I am not. If I am going to import something, there is going to be a record of it. If I buy something that I have to import, I will want to have proof that I legally purchased it.
     
  17. Mac'nCheese macrumors 68030

    Mac'nCheese

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    Look One sentence down, one character to the left in the quoted post. Typo for ok.
    That's the reason why the ban on ivory isn't working right now. Can't remember where i saw the report, but anytime the authorities see a store selling an ivory elephant statue, the store owner just claims it's an old piece.
     
  18. jkcerda macrumors 6502

    jkcerda

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    1.prevent the import

    2. its been almost 25 years, crap gets lost.

    3 forget the NRA, this covers ANYONE with ivory

    4 have you ever bought ivory? do you think it comes with a bill of sale and that the ivory is dated?

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    the proposed ban is INSIDE the U.S.

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    again, from the OP;s link


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    because Ivory is not dated, how the hell was someone supposed to know 25 years in the past that they would need a bill of sale proving how old the ivory is? not every one owns a Delorean with a flux capacitor
     
  19. TimelessOne macrumors regular

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    #19
    Again you failed to address the keep part of the argument.

    Argument 1 of yours not relevant. Does not work. Like I said how can you tell the difference between legally ivy vs illegal smuggled in ivy.

    2. Tough cookies. Not my problem. Points again at answer 1.

    3. NRA is the one fighting this.

    4. Since ivory has had these limitation on import for years chances are yes they are there for fully legal.

    Keep part that in your endless screaming you have never addressed. How can you tell the difference between legal ivory (pre 1990) and smuggled illegal ivory with out paper work.
     
  20. Gav2k macrumors G3

    Gav2k

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    It costs $500 to carbon date Ivory and is accurate to 1-3 years.
     
  21. jkcerda macrumors 6502

    jkcerda

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    1. how can the GOVT? why are people guilty instead of innocent till the GOVT makes their case?

    2.the requirement to have paper work is NEW, as in when & if the law passes, things might be different IF you were able to "register" you currently owned ivory for FREE.

    3 makes sense, see one, why make criminals out of people simply because they lost their paper work? see 2.

    4. chances? is the ivory itself "dated"?

    5 see 2.

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    sweet, the GOVT can pay the cost of it to make their case.
     
  22. lostngone macrumors demi-god

    lostngone

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    I was told that carbon dating is all fake!
    The "scientists" come up with these wild dates that we all know are fake. The Earth can not possibly be that old, the Bible says so.
     
  23. Gav2k macrumors G3

    Gav2k

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    And tomorrow is Jesus birthday right? Or is it jan 6th or sometime in August?? Hmm
     
  24. jkcerda macrumors 6502

    jkcerda

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    adjust your sarcasm meter & read the post again. my brother Jesus was born in November.
     
  25. TimelessOne macrumors regular

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    #25
    And again we have a mess of illegal ivory in the country right now with no way of tracing. Yeah this will get some caught but most of it is fine.
    That is the issue you have. All the other filling would do is allow it to be made legal.
    Not my problem if you bought a lot of questionable ivory over the years.

    As an added bonus this hurts the Ivory trade and drives down the prices as most becomes junk. So yeah.
     

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