Jail terms for faith healing pair

edesignuk

Moderator emeritus
Original poster
Mar 25, 2002
19,077
1
London, England
A US couple who prayed rather than seeking medical attention for their dying daughter have been sentenced to six months in jail.

Dale and Leilani Neumann, of Wisconsin, could have received up to 25 years in prison over the 2008 death of Madeline Neumann, who was known as Kara.

The 11-year-old died of an undiagnosed but treatable form of diabetes.
BBC.
 

Heilage

macrumors 68030
May 1, 2009
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Six months sounds a bit soft considering they by proxy killed their daughter.
 

IntheNet

macrumors regular
Oct 6, 2009
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A US couple who prayed rather than seeking medical attention for their dying daughter have been sentenced to six months in jail.

Dale and Leilani Neumann, of Wisconsin, could have received up to 25 years in prison over the 2008 death of Madeline Neumann, who was known as Kara.

The 11-year-old died of an undiagnosed but treatable form of diabetes. .
This is a sad case but had Dale and Leilani Neumann aborted their daughter there would be no deal here; as concerned parents that prayed for her, as is their right, and they faced 25 years in jail (six-months sentenced) and court finds that they should have tried medical care at clinic! Fair? What if Kara was brought into the clinic with her "treatable" form of diabetes and she still died? Would the clinic face 25 years (six-months sentenced) by the court? Seems to be some religious persecution here by a secular judge who is want to sentence parents for religious belief absent of medical care but I wonder if the reverse is true. While I find it incredibly sad for the young life lost I am not sure sentence is fair and equally applied under our current law.
 

edesignuk

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Original poster
Mar 25, 2002
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This is a sad case but had Dale and Leilani Neumann aborted their daughter there would be no deal here;
Genius, if she hadn't existed she couldn't have died. problem solved.
as concerned parents that prayed for her and they faced 25 years in jail (six-months sentenced)! Fair? What if Kara was brought into the clinic with her "treatable" form of diabetes and still died? Would the clinic face 25 years (six-months sentenced)?
They were useless parents who gave no one the chance to help their daughter. Had she still died after seeking treatment (as any sane, normal person would have), of course the hospital wouldn't face charges. They would have done their best.

What's wrong with you? :confused:
 

iBlue

macrumors Core
Mar 17, 2005
19,174
15
London, England
This is a sad case but had Dale and Leilani Neumann aborted their daughter there would be no deal here; as concerned parents that prayed for her, as is their right, and they faced 25 years in jail (six-months sentenced) and court finds that they should have tried medical care at clinic! Fair? What if Kara was brought into the clinic with her "treatable" form of diabetes and she still died? Would the clinic face 25 years (six-months sentenced) by the court? Seems to be some religious persecution here by a secular judge who is want to sentence parents for religious belief absent of medical care but I wonder if the reverse is true. While I find it incredibly sad for the young life lost I am not sure sentence is fair and equally applied under our current law.
http://upc.*************/uploads/images_other/trollspray.gif
 

yg17

macrumors G5
Aug 1, 2004
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St. Louis, MO
What if Kara was brought into the clinic with her "treatable" form of diabetes and she still died? Would the clinic face 25 years (six-months sentenced) by the court?
If she had a very treatable form of diabetes and she still died while in a doctor's care, that doctor would likely be facing a huge malpractice suit, and a multi million dollar settlement can in some ways be worse than 6 months in what is probably a minimum security prison.
 

tofagerl

macrumors 6502a
May 16, 2006
952
389
This is a sad case but had Dale and Leilani Neumann aborted their daughter there would be no deal here; as concerned parents that prayed for her, as is their right, and they faced 25 years in jail (six-months sentenced) and court finds that they should have tried medical care at clinic! Fair? What if Kara was brought into the clinic with her "treatable" form of diabetes and she still died? Would the clinic face 25 years (six-months sentenced) by the court? Seems to be some religious persecution here by a secular judge who is want to sentence parents for religious belief absent of medical care but I wonder if the reverse is true. While I find it incredibly sad for the young life lost I am not sure sentence is fair and equally applied under our current law.
I agree, I say we jail God as well, as he clearly is guilty in this case.
 

iShater

macrumors 604
Aug 13, 2002
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Chicagoland
God tells us to work hard and pray for the best, not to sit on our lazy behinds and just wish for thinks to happen.

Did anybody notice this part:

Kara died on the floor of the family's rural home as people surrounded her and prayed.
So more than the parents where there? why did they call medical services at all if they sooooooooo thought "western" medicine was bad.

I remember hearing about this on a BBC show and I was speechless.

They should take the rest of the kids away before it is too late.
 

IntheNet

macrumors regular
Oct 6, 2009
190
0
They were useless parents who gave no one the chance to help their daughter. Had she still died after seeking treatment (as any sane, normal person would have), of course the hospital wouldn't face charges...
Why do you give the hospital the benefit of the doubt that you do not extend to the parents?

The precedent here is quite amazing actually; now parents will be prosecuted for not giving full medical care in the eyes of the law; that scrape at the playground that required a band-aid should have been a emergency room visit - that headache that required a Tylenol should have been an out-patient doctor's exam. You take rights from parents and put the law as judge and jury on child raising based solely upon an alleged "undiagnosed" but assumed "treatable" form of diabetes that a clinic may have addressed.

They would have done their best.
Statistically speaking, hospitals do make mistakes and in some cases they don't do their best. Sadly, hospitals largely get a pass on these mistakes, when they are made, a pass that you are not at all willing to extend to the parents in this case.
 

edesignuk

Moderator emeritus
Original poster
Mar 25, 2002
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London, England
Why do you give the hospital the benefit of the doubt that you do not extend to the parents?
The hospitals/doctors were never given a chance.

The parents sat there idly and let their child die because they thought praying was adequate, when it quite simply isn't.

Nothing else matters here, they did nothing and as a consequence a child in their supposed care died needlessly.
 

arkitect

macrumors 603
Sep 5, 2005
5,910
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Bath, United Kingdom
Why do you give the hospital the benefit of the doubt that you do not extend to the parents?
Is this truly a difficult concept for you to grasp? :confused::rolleyes:

Hospitals: doctors, medication, equipment etcetera have a rather decent track record when it comes to healing and curing people.

Now prayer on the hand, not so much. ;)

Seriously, reading your comments on other threads I am sure you're just a troll.
 

yg17

macrumors G5
Aug 1, 2004
14,888
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St. Louis, MO
Why do you give the hospital the benefit of the doubt that you do not extend to the parents?
We don't. If a hospital screws up, they'll be in bigger trouble with the law than these two parents are.

The precedent here is quite amazing actually; now parents will be prosecuted for not giving full medical care in the eyes of the law; that scrape at the playground that required a band-aid should have been a emergency room visit - that headache that required a Tylenol should have been an out-patient doctor's exam. You take rights from parents and put the law as judge and jury on child raising based solely upon an alleged "undiagnosed" but assumed "treatable" form of diabetes that a clinic may have addressed.
A band aid is a reasonable treatment that works for a scrape. A Tylenol is a reasonable treatment that works for a headache. Prayer is an unreasonable treatment that doesn't work for diabetes.

And why do you keep putting "treatable" in quotes as if diabetes isn't treatable? Millions of people live perfectly normal, long lives with it. There's no cure for it, but with proper diet and insulin shots if needed, you can certainly prevent the negative effects of it. My grandmother, for example, lived to be 90 with diabetes and died of something else completely unrelated to it. It's not curable, but it is definitely treatable. This girl didn't have to die at 11 because she was diabetic.

Statistically speaking, hospitals do make mistakes and in some cases they don't do their best. Sadly, hospitals largely get a pass on these mistakes, when they are made, a pass that you are not at all willing to extend to the parents in this case.
Praying to cure your daughter of a treatable illness goes far beyond a mistake. It is neglect, and in my opinion, first degree murder that should be punished just as harshly as if they put a gun to her head and pulled the trigger. At least if they did the latter, she would've died a quick, painless death.
 

iShater

macrumors 604
Aug 13, 2002
6,967
370
Chicagoland
Why do you give the hospital the benefit of the doubt that you do not extend to the parents?

The precedent here is quite amazing actually; now parents will be prosecuted for not giving full medical care in the eyes of the law; that scrape at the playground that required a band-aid should have been a emergency room visit - that headache that required a Tylenol should have been an out-patient doctor's exam. You take rights from parents and put the law as judge and jury on child raising based solely upon an alleged "undiagnosed" but assumed "treatable" form of diabetes that a clinic may have addressed.



Statistically speaking, hospitals do make mistakes and in some cases they don't do their best. Sadly, hospitals largely get a pass on these mistakes, when they are made, a pass that you are not at all willing to extend to the parents in this case.

Dude, it is called negligence. They saw and KNEW something was wrong, but opted to not seek any medical care.
 

velocityg4

macrumors 601
Dec 19, 2004
4,602
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Georgia
Why do you give the hospital the benefit of the doubt that you do not extend to the parents?

The precedent here is quite amazing actually; now parents will be prosecuted for not giving full medical care in the eyes of the law; that scrape at the playground that required a band-aid should have been a emergency room visit - that headache that required a Tylenol should have been an out-patient doctor's exam. You take rights from parents and put the law as judge and jury on child raising based solely upon an alleged "undiagnosed" but assumed "treatable" form of diabetes that a clinic may have addressed.
This is why I disagree with the verdict.

What about parents that use a herbalist, if someone of another religion used a traditional medicine man/shayman, or traditional chinese medicine? None of which are approved western medicines. Then got sent to jail, would peoples reactions be the same?

One might say that at least the above examples tried. Since none of those people are qualified and licensed medical professionals, then any treatment from alternative medicine is about as valid as a prayer group.

Do I disagree with what they did? Yes, wholeheartedly.
Do I support their right to do so? Yes, when you start picking away at a freedom you give others the ability to take away more.
 

Thomas Veil

macrumors 68020
Feb 14, 2004
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OBJECTIVE reality
If these two nut jobs had killed the kid by a sin of commission (e.g., stabbing) than a sin of omission (withholding treatment), they would've gotten a much longer sentence.

But because religion was involved, that somehow makes it less heinous of a crime. :rolleyes:

This country's head is so up its ass where religion is concerned.

BTW, no "freedom" gives the parents the right to do this. Their right to raise the kid doesn't extend to taking her life.
 

yg17

macrumors G5
Aug 1, 2004
14,888
2,480
St. Louis, MO
This is why I disagree with the verdict.

What about parents that use a herbalist, if someone of another religion used a traditional medicine man/shayman, or traditional chinese medicine? None of which are approved western medicines. Then got sent to jail, would peoples reactions be the same?
If the alternative medicine didn't work, yes, my reaction would be the same.
 

ucfgrad93

macrumors P6
Aug 17, 2007
17,535
8,157
Colorado
As a person of faith, I think what they did was wrong. They should have taken Kara to the doctors. If they wanted to pray (which in my opinion is a great thing) they should have prayed for healing, wisdom of the doctors to figure out what was wrong with their daughter, that the treatment would work, etc.

It is sad, this girl is now dead.
 

P-Worm

macrumors 68020
Jul 16, 2002
2,045
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Salt Lake City, UT
This is a sad story, but I can't help but think about the Jehovah's Witnesses. They don't allow blood transfusions in their church, and I'm sure that there have been instances where a needed blood transfusion could have saved the life of a child. Why do Jehovah's Witnesses get a pass on this and this couple doesn't? Seems a bit unfair to me.

Granted this is a tragic story. I believe in God and that He answers prayers, but I also believe that God expects us to do everything in our power to solve the problems and trials that come our way.

P-Worm