Jobs Women Can Not Do.

Discussion in 'Politics, Religion, Social Issues' started by Plutonius, Nov 1, 2016.

  1. Plutonius macrumors 603

    Plutonius

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    #1
    A USA Today article reported that the Pope made a declaration today that women will never be allowed to be priest.

    I find it it strange that the Pope is so liberal on other issues but refuses to budge on women becoming priest.
     
  2. LizKat, Nov 1, 2016
    Last edited: Nov 1, 2016

    LizKat macrumors 68040

    LizKat

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    #2
    Popes are like presidents in the sense they only have so much political capital.... and the Vatican is like a huge aircraft carrier's worth of Congress critters, with a library of doctrine that makes our Supreme Court's precedents look like that little shelf of books in back of a kindergarten. Turning the church around on an issue like that is asking too much of one pope or maybe even one millenium... but in reality they don't have anywhere near that long to find a creative way to change course.

    They already risk losing the church's serious clout in the world of Christian charity due to the decline in ability to attract new nuns (and priests as well). The nuns are the backbone of social outreach to the poor, elderly and disabled all around the world. It's probably the lay women of the church and associated Catholic organizations that will keep the pressure on, along with the scholars and historians, but it promises to go on being a slow slog.

    Even so, way back in the 60s during Vatican II proceedings, a Belgian cardinal asked his assembled peers why they were even considering "the reality of the church" when half its members --women-- were not even represented. Today it's more like two-thirds...

    The farthest that bishop's remark got women during Vactican II's later sessions was appointment of some female observers and auditors, but it was a step forward anyway. Some of the more radical among advocates of female ordination have gone ahead and got bishops to ordain women as priests, but then those bishops were excommunicated.

    This is an interesting piece from 1986 by one of the women who became an auditor during Vatican II back in the mid-1960s. It summarizes a lot of the issues, a lot of the progress on the theological (scholarly) side, but concludes with the elephant in the living room which is the obstinacy at the top, acknowledged by a bishop who said that it has to change (duh) but could not say more than that since... there's nothing to say.


    In the Vatican they do know they need to look at this but their heads are in the sand. Meanwhile in Europe the ranks thin out from drift to agnosticism or atheism and in Latin America they lose parishioners to evangelical or charismatic sects of Christianity that have more inclusive treatment of women in their hierarchies. In the USA I think Catholic women involved in permitted lay activities of the church sometimes feel like they're up against a stone wall, but also believe that eventually it's on the scholarly side where the pressure will likely force the Vatican's hand.

    Meanwhile some American nuns got publicly hammered by their bishops for paying too much attention to social outreach and not enough to theology and doctrine (and the politics of anti-abortion) a few years ago. That caused enough of a brouhaha that the bishops kinda backed off putting it that way again, but radical nuns still don't make any points in the hierarchy even in the States.
     
  3. steve knight macrumors 68020

    steve knight

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    #3
    its all about power. the only reason it was started was because of inheritance and not wanting a women to inherit church property.
     
  4. soulreaver99 macrumors 68020

    soulreaver99

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    #4
    Women can't be Thunder Down Under or Chip N Dale dancers /thread
     
  5. ibookg409 Suspended

    ibookg409

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    #5
    The Pope is an idiot and nothing more than a political hack these days.
     
  6. yaxomoxay macrumors 68000

    yaxomoxay

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    #6
    There's already an infallible declaration by John Paul II. No pope can change that.
    --- Post Merged, Nov 2, 2016 ---
    There's no inheritance. That's why priests can't marry.
     
  7. A.Goldberg macrumors 68000

    A.Goldberg

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    #7
    Honestly, when it comes to religious rules and tradition I have generally have little sympathy for something like this. But first, I respect the right to religion and theirfore their freedom to operate under their own set of rules (within reason), as antiquated as they may be.

    I am all for equal rights and opportunity personally, but religion often circumvents gender equality. And it's certainly not unique to Catholicism. I was raised Jewish and can tell you their are different gender roles in practice and especially in very orthodox and Hasidic communities. If you look at Islam there's you have an incredibly patriarchal system.

    If you're not happy with the Catholic Church's way of doing things, find a religion that more appropriately fits your beliefs. Why be part of a system that you don't agree with? The very discourse of traditional belief is historically what has caused new religions to form and pressures changes within the Catholic Church.

    I don't like to condem on inner workings of religions that I am not a part of. While I could easily say it's unfair that the Pope can only be a male, I imagine there are plenty of Catholic women who simply accept that fact as a basic tenant of the religion.

    It's like complaining Catholic laws bars nuns from getting married. Don't plan on becoming a nun if you want to have a husband and kids.

    I'm not Catholic, haven't been baptized, haven't had my first communion. Is it wrong the Church is depriving me of a communion wafer if I go to a service? Are they discriminating me because I'm Jewish? (One time I got one not knowing the rules, oops. I actually kind of liked the taste of it though)

    TL;DR: Don't like it, don't be a part of it.
     
  8. yaxomoxay macrumors 68000

    yaxomoxay

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    #8
    Exactly. No adult is forced to be Catholic. Many don't even follow the regular precepts like going to church on Sunday or do what is required during lent. There's no consequence for not following most of the "rules".
    If you become a priest or a nun you know what you're dealing with. The rules and duties are all there to see. Canon law and the cathechism are free online in tens of languages, Latin included. You know what you have to sacrifice in order to be ordained. It's a very long and difficult process.
    And you can always leave. The priest that married my parents in Italy back in 1970 abandoned the church and married a month later.
    To go back to the original topic, the Ordinatio Sacerdotalis by John Paul II is a good start to understand the why and why not:
    https://w2.vatican.va/content/john-...p-ii_apl_19940522_ordinatio-sacerdotalis.html

    As I mentioned earlier, John Paul II used infallibility so no pontiff will change it.
     
  9. cube macrumors G5

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    #9
    What if a Pope makes an infallible declaration that an infallible declaration can fail?
     
  10. NT1440 macrumors G4

    NT1440

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    #10
    Was there ever a time that the Pope wasn't the political head of the Vatican?
     
  11. A.Goldberg macrumors 68000

    A.Goldberg

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    #11
    Then the next Pope could make an infallible declaration that the infallible declaration that infallible declarations can fail is false.
     
  12. Scepticalscribe Contributor

    Scepticalscribe

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    #12
    Brilliant post, beautifully written and superbly argued.





    Ex Cathedra is a bit like Supreme Court decisions; they can always be overturned - in time - by a further ex cathedra pronouncement - from a different pope - some centuries later.

    Besides, the very notion of ex cathedra pronouncements - that is, a pronouncement backed by the concept and clout of the idea of papal infallibility - itself is a very recent one, dating only from the time of the First Vatican Council of 1869-70, and thus, is not rooted in antiquity or traditions of the Church.

    Instead, it is a pretty recent innovation, and one designed to buttress crumbling theological fortresses in the light of a rapidly changing world and vocal demands for social and political change.


    That was one of the main reasons that the Catholic Church introduced a bar on priests marrying.




    That is all very well, @A.Goldberg, to write "Don't like it, don't be a part of it': However, in some countries the religious authorities have amassed such power, and have such a deeply rooted - and presence in the wider society that they have managed to dictate - or suggest - laws to elected state authorities on social policy matters that have subsequently been enacted, laws which have been hugely repressive of women.

    Indeed, I remain astonished at how much effort and energy almost all of the world's great religions put into defining doctrinal adherence in terms of the suppression of women.

    States with Catholic cultures such as Italy, Spain, Portugal - and latterly Ireland - only managed to remove legislation (introduced in support of Catholic doctrine) restricting divorce, access to birth control, and outlawing homosexuality in the 1980s and 1990s.

    I have no problem with religion in the private space; however, I do have a massive problem with any religious authority seeking to have their vision and view of the world enshrined in state laws, and this does become an issue when a particulate religion succeeds in conflating itself with an assumed tradition - invented or otherwise - of national identity.

    In those circumstances, it can become very difficult to gainsay such a visible presence, as it can wield both theological clout and call upon national emotion in support of itself and its stance.

    Re the Catholic Church, @LizKat is right; falling vacations - especially in the first world - will do for them, unless they manage to make up this shortfall by attracting individuals from elsewhere to their ranks.
     
  13. unlinked macrumors 6502a

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    #13
    It doesn't really strike me as unfair but maybe because I'm not sure that concept even applies to being head of a religion. Then again I had it easy, not believing in god meant I opted out of the whole catholic thing quite early.
     
  14. cube, Nov 2, 2016
    Last edited: Nov 2, 2016

    cube macrumors G5

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    #14
    Which can be false according to the previous declaration.

    And if the previous declaration is false, it means it is true.

    Game over.
     
  15. A.Goldberg macrumors 68000

    A.Goldberg

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    #15
    This was mainly the point I was getting at. I used the words "(within reason)" regarding a religious body's influence. For internal matters of the Catholic Church, such as who can be Priest or who can get married, who cares. If they want to abolish Lent so be it. If they want to deny homosexual marriages that's their choice (just be aware time are changing and that may drive away people).

    I agree, once things start trickling out into the politics system it becomes problematic... especially when you have more than one religion in the area. The whole illegal gay marriage ban legally speaking I find ridiculous. Denying birth control, also ridiculous. Etc, etc.

    It is an interesting point in time we have. America's laws are becoming more secular. The Ultra-Christians think their rights are being infringed on. Now creating these backwards "religious freedom laws" :rolleyes: And while the West seems to become increasingly non-religious, the hyper-religiosity of the Middle East is quite astounding.
     
  16. tunerX Suspended

    tunerX

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    #16
    While we are at it we can have him strike out some commandments. He can say adultery and murder are no longer a sin on Christmas eve but only at Vatican city of course.
     
  17. yaxomoxay macrumors 68000

    yaxomoxay

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    #17
    I don't recall any infallible teaching that has been "overturned"... I am not saying you're wrong, just that I don't recall a single one

    Infallibility of the pope has always been true. Vatican I simply had to proclaim it because the world had changed and the Pope was not commonly seen as infallible as he was earlier. It is nothing invented during Vatican I, simply proclaimed, similar to Mary's immaculate conception. Always held as true, but once the theological world began to stir problems, the church declared it as a dogma. Nothing weird about it.

    Yep. The last thing I want in the church is to go back to the time of the big dynasties. We had enough Orsini's, Borgia's, or even enough Borromeo's.
     
  18. Scepticalscribe, Nov 2, 2016
    Last edited: Nov 2, 2016

    Scepticalscribe Contributor

    Scepticalscribe

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    #18
    No, neither do I, but - given that the Vatican thinks in centuries and tends to take a long time to think things through - I would not be at all surprised if they didn't write that into their theological infrastructure at some stage.

    No. Prior to the First Council it was assumed, or implied - the mere authority (and power) of a proclamation coming of the office of pope was considered sufficient in an age where deference and hierarchy were strong and education - and the desire or need to question authority - much more limited.

    But, by the 1860s and 1870s, the world was changing.

    Thus, it was proclaimed during Vatican I because the Church felt their authority eroding and needed to buttress it with a further layer of - what they hoped would be unquestionable - theological authority.

    Papal infallibility did not exist prior to 1870; what did exist was the pope's right not to be questioned in an organisation which was profoundly non-democratic (and was hostile to the forces of those parts of society seeking democratic change - the Vatican didn't even recognise the newly created Italian state until Benito Mussolini signed a concordat with them over half a century later) and - in essence - autocratic and exceptionally hierarchical in structure and in its very beliefs.

    And Mary's Immaculate Conception: Even among those who were raised as Catholics, there can be few who subscribe to this these days.
     
  19. yaxomoxay macrumors 68000

    yaxomoxay

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    #19
    Exactly. I don't see any historical reason to believe that this will change, but who knows. As you said, the next infallible proclamation could be in 2525. We'll wait and see.

    This is what I said. By 1870 they had to declare it, Explicitly. After Porta Pia, the Pope was an exhiled in his own country, he couldn't even leave the walls of his city. At that point they had to declare the infallibility of the pope, as it was an obvious question.
    I am afraid that this is where we disagree. The fact that it wasn't declared doesn't mean that it wasn't in existence prior to the declaration. The Church - and the pope by extension - have to be infallible. Now, the common misconception is that people believe that infallible means that whatever he says should be infallible. That's not how it is. Theologically, infallibility doesn't reside in the office of the Pope, but in Truth itself. If I say something True, I am infallible. (Now I don't want to get into the existentialism of what is the Truth, you can't handle the truth etc.). The only difference between the pope and myself is that he can declare such truth to the whole church in very limited circumstances.

    Well, I wouldn't say that they're few. At least not in the catholic groups I interact with. I actually don't see why some Catholics have problems with it...
     
  20. aaronvan Suspended

    aaronvan

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    #20
    Women can't write their names in a snowbank.
     
  21. s2mikey macrumors 68020

    s2mikey

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    #21
    Catholicism is really, really lame these days. Like many of you I was "raised" under some of the catholic traditions but man it was pointless. Do what you want all week, confess on Sunday. All set. Lather, rinse, repeat. Also hated all of the damned parties that were really just money-grabs like communions, confirmations, etc. Bunch of crap.

    I know my Italian Mother and my Italian in-laws would freak out if they read this....but it what it is. Ironically, None of them ever go to Church except for Funerals, weddings and maybe Easter. Thats IT. So dodgy.
     
  22. BernyMac macrumors regular

    BernyMac

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    #22
    Meh, there are also jobs men cannot do.

    I believe Islam may already have surpassed Catholics in numbers. If you think Catholics have some restrictions... ;P
     
  23. Moyank24 macrumors 601

    Moyank24

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    #23
    Absolutely agree. I'm Italian and my family is exactly the same.

    This would have ticked me off years ago, but the Catholic Church lost every bit of any respect I may have had for them years ago when they decided that the reputation of the church was more important than the health and welfare of children.

    Good riddance!
     
  24. BoxerGT2.5 macrumors 68000

    BoxerGT2.5

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    #24
    If that's they way they want it, that's their business. If those of Catholic faith want to change it, then dialogue between them, the priests, cardinals, and Pope can open those doors when and if they feel it's worth the time.
     
  25. Mac'nCheese macrumors 68030

    Mac'nCheese

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    #25
    The Purge 3

    Insert funny tagline here.
     

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