Just how bad is torture?

Discussion in 'Politics, Religion, Social Issues' started by nbs2, May 24, 2007.

  1. nbs2 macrumors 68030

    nbs2

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    #1
    This bad. (warning - not very well done, but still pretty graphic drawings for the more delicate among us)

    I don't know if American practices reached this level, but if the worst thing to happen to you was standing naked in a pyramid while some hillbilly chick points at your nether regions, I wouldn't complain...
     
  2. obeygiant macrumors 68040

    obeygiant

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    #2
    To what end does al Qaeda torture people for?


    Here is an account of what has happened in Gitmo via wiki:

    wiki
     
  3. nbs2 thread starter macrumors 68030

    nbs2

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    #3
    Probably the same reasons as anyone else.
    • Information
    • Control over the local populace
    • Punishment for betrayal
    • Intimidation of the enemy
    Just to name a few
     
  4. Swarmlord macrumors 6502a

    Swarmlord

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    #4
    Sleep dreprevation looks pretty heinous compared to that stuff. :rolleyes:
     
  5. leekohler macrumors G5

    leekohler

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    #5
    We all know that you're in favor of far worse, thanks.
     
  6. obeygiant macrumors 68040

    obeygiant

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    #6
    Don't lose any sleep over it. :)
     
  7. leekohler macrumors G5

    leekohler

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    #7
    Swarmy is that last person I'd ever lose sleep over- and you're also competing for that spot. :)
     
  8. skunk macrumors G4

    skunk

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    #8
    What the other guys might or might not do is totally irrelevant. Since we already know that up to 90% of the prisoners in Abu Ghraib, Bagram, Guantanamo and elsewhere were/are completely innocent and/or had no charges made against them, any mistreatment is an outrage, and even if they have been found guilty by due process such treatment is illegal.
     
  9. tk421 macrumors 6502a

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    #9
    Agreed. I don't know if the people held in Guantanamo are guilty or not, and that is precisely part of the problem. Nobody knows who is held there or why, and nobody knows exactly what goes on there. Whether they are American citizens or not, and whether they are terrorists or not, is irrelevant. We absolutely must adhere to rule of law and habeus corpus.
     
  10. hulugu macrumors 68000

    hulugu

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    #10
    No one wants to hear about your kinky sexual fantasies.
     
  11. puckhead193 macrumors G3

    puckhead193

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    #11
    well that made me sick to my stomach...thanks for sharing :rolleyes:
     
  12. hulugu macrumors 68000

    hulugu

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    #12
    I still don't understand why obeygiant, nbs2, and swarmlord are trying to define the moral question of torture based on the heinous and cruel acts of Al Qaeda? Is this really the new standard for law among the civilized nations of the world, at least we're not as bad as Al Qaeda?

    We are supposed to be better than them, we are the shining city on the hill, we supposed to be the good and the righteous, and this means we don't torture people. We don't play semantic games with trying to define torture, we don't do it. And we don't do it because, not matter what you've seen on 24, it doesn't result in accurate or timely information.

    Furthermore, according to Mark Bowden's article "The Ploy" (unfortunately the article is behind a subscriber wall), one of the greatest triumphs of modern interrogation came, not with naked pyramids or beatings, but with something more subtle:

    Furthermore, I recommend that anyone who is geniunely interested in this debate read this article, also by Mark Bowden. Bowden also wrote another article, describing the failure of Abu Ghraib:

     
  13. obeygiant macrumors 68040

    obeygiant

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    #13
    hulugu, I'm certainly not saying torture is right. In an ideal world, yes the "good guys" would never torture. But thats not the world we live in. Murder is wrong too, but the bad guys would always win the war if the good guys didn't fight back. If this is the new standard for law it sure as hell looks a lot like the old standard.
     
  14. hulugu macrumors 68000

    hulugu

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    #14
    So, if our enemy engages in wholesale genocide, is that an excuse to do the same?
    Furthermore, this again assumes that torture even works, which there is ample evidence to prove that not only does torture fail as a method of interrogation, but it carries a massive and dangerous blowback in our effort to win the heart and minds of Iraq and the rest of the Middle East. We are hampering our own efforts without gaining a thing. We are wasting valuable resources, we are wasting time, we are wasting goodwill and our relationships with both Europe and friendly Mid-East nations, all for information that can be gained through other interrogation methods.
     
  15. skunk macrumors G4

    skunk

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    #15
    This is amorality, pure and simple. No rules, no standards, no civilisation. What are we fighting for again, other than oil and profit?
     
  16. solvs macrumors 603

    solvs

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    #16
    You think that's the worst we do?

    Only because we sunk ourselves to their level and made it that way.

    Personally, I'd like to be better than "at least we aren't as bad as", especially if we are.
     
  17. janey macrumors 603

    janey

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    #17
    Although the actions of some at Abu Ghraib were despicable, there is at least one reason explaining why they acted as such, and as Bowden correctly points out, it's a systematic issue going all the way up to the top.

    Anyone take Psych 101 in college and remember the Stanford prison experiment by Philip Zimbardo? One of the most famous psychological experiments to date...You know. The one where he brought in two dozen college students to live together in a prison setting in the basement of one of the buildings at Stanford. Where, within a couple days, every single one of those formerly completely reasonable men started to truly internalize everything; what was supposed to be a trivial experiment turned into hell; and before a week had passed, Zimbardo was forced to stop the experiment.

    Abu Ghraib stinks of the same thing, but all we're doing so far is blaming the individual soldiers and not many others...:rolleyes:
     
  18. Don't panic macrumors 603

    Don't panic

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    #18
    the problem with your world is that it becomes increasingly less clear who the good guys and the bad guys are, to the point that they are exactly the same.
    you seem fine with being 'the bad guys' and ignore moral values, but other people beg to differ.
     
  19. hulugu macrumors 68000

    hulugu

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    #19
    You'll find no argument here, the soldiers were given up while the commanders and civilians who had effectively created the situation got away scott free.
    Furthermore, the Stanford prison experiment shows just exactly how dehumanizing even the regular prison system can be, add to this the stress of mortar fire and there becomes a petri dish for the worst kinds of abuses. Instituting controls and professionalism can help blunt this human reaction, but even with the best people in the right situation abuse is always hovering on the edge.

    Also, it's worth noting that rather than save the Iraqi people from the rape rooms of Saddam, we merely instituted a new ownership, now the rape rooms are run by Al Qaeda.
     
  20. Lyle macrumors 68000

    Lyle

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    #20
    Sounds a lot like some employer-employee relationships I've been in. Or, you know, marriage.
     
  21. skunk macrumors G4

    skunk

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    #21
    I don't think anyone's complaining about that level of interrogation. :rolleyes:
     
  22. obeygiant macrumors 68040

    obeygiant

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    #22
    Thats a good point. What would you do if an enemy wanted to totally destroy you? To survive you would have to destroy them right?

    How many Nazis did the allies have to kill before the threat was gone?

    What does morality have to do with survival?
     
  23. geese macrumors 6502a

    geese

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    #23
    How does scandals such as Guantanemo Bay and Abu Graib fit with survival?

    If you're going to claim some kind of moral superiority, have the decency to fight like it. That means not angering the a country that you've just invaded. That isnt survival, its the opposite as it is turning out.
     
  24. skunk macrumors G4

    skunk

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    #24
    If you throw away all your principles it's probably best for everyone else if you don't survive.
     
  25. leekohler macrumors G5

    leekohler

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    #25
    I know you were being serious, but that made me LMAO! :D Can I use that, or do you have it copyrighted? ;)
     

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