Justice ... 28 years late

Discussion in 'Politics, Religion, Social Issues' started by citizenzen, Jun 28, 2017.

  1. citizenzen macrumors 65816

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    #1
  2. Foggydog macrumors 6502

    Foggydog

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    #2
    Agreed. I just read that a few minutes ago and raised my eyebrows
     
  3. citizenzen thread starter macrumors 65816

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    #3
    The wheels of justice apparently grind slooowly.

    But where are the Brit's comments?

    One would think they'd love to have something to talk about besides trump.

    (Actually, most are probably asleep)
     
  4. Night Spring macrumors G5

    Night Spring

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    #4
    It's 2:30 am in U.K., lol.

    I hope somebody has an answer once they wake up in the morning, I was wondering the same thing myself.
     
  5. mrkramer macrumors 603

    mrkramer

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    #5
  6. Gutwrench macrumors 65816

    Gutwrench

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  7. The-Real-Deal82 macrumors 601

    The-Real-Deal82

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    #7
    Justice for Andy and the other 95 at last!!

    The families have fought tirelessly in the face of scepticism and arrogance. Police corruption finally admitted!

    28 bloody years...
     
  8. Zenithal macrumors 68040

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  9. sim667 macrumors 65816

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    #9
    Its a difficult one to explain this.......

    Around this era there was a general disdain for the working class by politicians and Police and a number of cover ups took place around this current event, and largely it was considered "put to bed".

    But the Hillsborough survivors and relatives have fought a long and arduous campaign with numerous court cases, and these convictions are finally coming around as a result of a very in depth investigation, which was needed.

    Unfortunately I think we'll see a very similar period of time before there's any justice for Grenfell Towers too. Justice delayed is justice denied.
    --- Post Merged, Jun 29, 2017 ---
    Its too early to say that until the verdicts.
     
  10. rhett7660 macrumors G4

    rhett7660

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    #10
    I was not familiar with the incident so I had to look it up on line. What a terrible thing to happen. The question that wasn't answered, at least in the video I saw, is why did they let everyone in at the point they did and why to the location where this occurred. It wasn't mentioned so I ask here. Was this a normal occurrence so nothing was thought of it at the time?

    Most of the videos and commentary I was able to view were old and did not take into account what is going on now.
     
  11. MacNut macrumors Core

    MacNut

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    #11
    I remember seeing a 30for30 about this on ESPN a few years back.
     
  12. yaxomoxay, Jun 29, 2017
    Last edited: Jun 29, 2017

    yaxomoxay macrumors 68000

    yaxomoxay

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    #12
    I remember this, at the time I was 9 and used to go at the soccer stadium (AC Milan!!!) every Sunday. Horrible.
    It's so disturbing that it took 28 years to finally get this to a (legal) resolution.

    I also have a vague memory of the Heysel soccer tragedy - a fruit of pure evil. My brother remembers it well.
     
  13. VulchR macrumors 68020

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    #13
    It seems to me that the UK has a hard time valuing the poorer elements of its society. The recent fire is another example of people being treated like trash. Frankly, it is endemic to all the major political parties, but the Tories seem to suffer this flaw the most.

    Indeed, it'd be interesting to see what kind of communication went on between Thatcher's Tory government and the Yorkshire police after the tragedy.
     
  14. Eraserhead macrumors G4

    Eraserhead

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    #14
    Sames true with America. Letting the bottom half rot with the same income for half a century in an age of unprecedented plenty. Come on.

    And France has all those Muslim no-go zones etc etc.

    The problem is endemic across the developed world.
     
  15. yaxomoxay, Jun 29, 2017
    Last edited: Jun 29, 2017

    yaxomoxay macrumors 68000

    yaxomoxay

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    #15
    It's endemic all across the globe. It's not specific to any country.
    --- Post Merged, Jun 29, 2017 ---
    Back then going to soccer stadiums was a mess. Often seats were not assigned and if they were, no one really cared about the seat. Some stadiums didn't even have seats, and people just had to stand. This made tracking of how many people accessed the stadium almost impossible. On top of that, thousands of fake tickets were sold and thousands of people pushed to get in.
    I still remember the crowds, and how many times I felt crushed as a child (I was also close from being hit by a small rocket-firework sent towards my face by the opposing fans when I was 12 or so. Gladly my brother saw it and pushed me (I fell to the ground).
    Police was often not effective - I can't even begin to count how many cops watched the game and not the crowd. Unless things went pretty bad, they didn't care. They didn't care about fights as long as they were limited. Total ineptitude. Add something to the mix: in many European countries violence inside a stadium was considered a misdemeanor. Outside of the stadium it was a felony, inside of the stadium it was a misdemeanor. Often the only consequence for a fight was for the "fan" to miss one or two games.

    Heysel's tragedy is an example of All things going wrong at the same time and is an exemplary study. Organizational, structural, and behavioral things just went wrong.
    Cops ignored the warnings, and decided to separate the hoolingans from the opposing team's fans just by a single layered fence. Worse, the opposing fans were mainly families, not opposing hooligans (which could have defended themselves). Plus it was overcrowded. The hooligans became violent and pushed down the fence, causing massive panic and violence. 40 people died, and hundreds were injured. Things were so bad that UEFA decided to (be ready!) keep playing the match in order to distract people and slowly get them out of the stadium. Heysel is important because it is the primary example of what was happening in soccer stadiums back then, just multiplied x10.
    Watch some videos on that, be forewarned about the disturbing content.
     
  16. rhett7660 macrumors G4

    rhett7660

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    #16
    @yaxomoxay ok, understand now. The couple of videos I watched did not talk about the ticket and seating being a problem. They mainly focused on the crowds and how everyone went to the one location. Which knowing now what you mentioned, makes sense and from the sound of it, it wasn't an issue from the past so why would it be an issue now.

    I could see how going to one of these games could be freaking scary especially given how many people, festive seating, and add alcohol to the mix. Yikes!
     
  17. The-Real-Deal82 macrumors 601

    The-Real-Deal82

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    #17
    The Hillsborough disaster was not caused by alcohol and the sheer amount of people. It was caused by a lack of police at Leppings Lane monitoring crowd flow and making sure fans filled all 4 pens. All fans were guided into central pens and when the crowd was out of control, scumbag Duckenfield ordered the main gate be opened allowing hundreds more fans to push into the central pens resulting in a major crush. Despite all this the game was allowed to kick off with fans hearing this the inevitably wanted to get into the game. When it became apparent people were being crushed to death, the police quickly began a smear campaign blaming drunk ticketless fans.

    People like my brothers mate were made out to be criminals and survivors were accused of urinating on 'brave cops' as they tried to save lives. Survivors were accused of pick pocketing the dead and the whole blame was callously deflected onto fans with help of scum publications like The Sun newspaper. Nobody learned from 1982 when this nearly happened at exactly the same ground. It beggars belief!!! I hope those responsible get proper sentences for the corruption and misery they've caused!
     
  18. sim667 macrumors 65816

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    #18
    I don't think its right to say this is a UK only thing, its a worldwide thing.
    --- Post Merged, Jun 30, 2017 ---
    There's a BBC documentary on youtube here: its 2 hours long.

     
  19. elf69 macrumors 68000

    elf69

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    #19
    sometimes the UK justice system is a joke.

    not the same but....

    my brother was almost killed few years back when car driver hit him on his motor bike on way to work.
    he was in hospital for 9 months!

    she admitted fault.... she got 3 points on license and £90 fine.
    my brother only has 80% movement in both his shoulders after breaking scapulars!

    UK also has no death penalty.
    Sometimes think we need it back like USA!
     
  20. VulchR macrumors 68020

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    #20
    Ut's not really my place to comment on UK laws since I am not a citizen, but it does seem odd to me that in Scotland one get prosecuted for violating traffic laws but sentencing does not seem to consider the consequence of that violation. Thus, some body falling asleep at the wheel on a deserted country road and hits a tree is treated the same way as somebody falling asleep at the wheel and crashing into a crowd of people. It is as though the latter is considered 'unlucky'.

    Indeed, a women near where I live once argued in court that she would not have driven drunk had she not been drunk. I love the eccentricities of the UK....
    --- Post Merged, Jun 30, 2017 ---
    I did not intend to engage in UK-bashing. Things are worse in the US certainly (so many empty garages for lifeless cars, so many homeless...). However, the fact that this is occurring everywhere is hardly comfort to those who are victims of it. On my part, I'd really, really like to see the Tories out of power, for I think they treat the poor the worst of all the UK political parties. The just seem so mean-spirited. The incendiary devices that were attached to the sides of Grenfell Tower by a Tory Council apparently saved £300,000 and allowed for a stylish change in colour (see BBC story). :(
     
  21. Eraserhead macrumors G4

    Eraserhead

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    #21
    Worse £5k would have bought better aluminium cladding.
     
  22. sim667 macrumors 65816

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    #22
    At Grenfell a poor human life was valued at £50. Which speaks volumes.
     
  23. rhett7660 macrumors G4

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    #23
    It sounds like this all added up to a recipe for disaster. Very sad.
    --- Post Merged, Jun 30, 2017 ---
    Thanks for the full one, the one I watched was 10 minute snippet of this one. This one lays out the complete picture. Thank you.
     

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