Justice ... 28 years late


citizenzen

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Mar 22, 2010
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Agreed. I just read that a few minutes ago and raised my eyebrows
The wheels of justice apparently grind slooowly.

But where are the Brit's comments?

One would think they'd love to have something to talk about besides trump.

(Actually, most are probably asleep)
 
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Gutwrench

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Jan 2, 2011
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In April 2016, a two-year inquest found that the fans had been “unlawfully killed” and cited errors or omissions by the police in planning and executing security for the match on April 15, 1989. In particular, it faulted the actions of commanding officers. The inquest left prosecutors to decide whether to file criminal charges, and on Wednesday, the Crown Prosecution Service announced that it would.

David Duckenfield, the match commander for the South Yorkshire Police on the day of the tragedy, will face manslaughter charges. Five other men also face charges: Graham Henry Mackrell, a former secretary of Sheffield Wednesday Football Club, which operates Hillsborough Stadium; Peter Metcalf, a lawyer who represented the South Yorkshire Police; and three other former high-ranking police officers — Norman Bettison, Donald Denton and Alan Foster.

The victims suffocated at an F.A. Cup semifinal between Liverpool and Nottingham Forest after the police opened a gate in an effort to relieve congestion outside the stadium before the game. That resulted in fans outside flooding in, trampling some and crushing others against steel fencing. In addition to the 96 who died, who ranged in age from 10 to 67, more than 700 others were injured. (One of the 96 died days after the match; another, who was left in a persistent vegetative state, died in 1993.)

A BBC documentary about the Hillsborough disaster. Video by Cosmos Documentaries
After the disaster, some senior law enforcement officials and members of the news media, particularly at The Sun, initially pointed fingers at the victims for abetting their own deaths, saying they had been drunk and unruly.

The decades-long struggle to find out what really happened on the day of the match dragged as the authorities sought to obfuscate and blame the fans for the disaster. The 1989 Taylor Inquiry, which investigated right afterward, blamed a “failure of police control” and found that the police had wrongly tried to shift blame onto the fans.

But a 1991 coroner’s inquest judged the deaths to be accidental, and no criminal charges were filed. Grieving families waged a lengthy campaign that eventually shifted the prevailing narrative in the case — which has raised issues of class, institutional accountability and justice — away from the behavior of the fans to the failure of law enforcement.

Photo

Family members of victims of the 1989 Hillsborough stadium disaster after the Crown Prosecution Service made its announcement on Wednesday. CreditAndrew Yates/Reuters
In 2012, an independent panel concluded that there had been an elaborate police cover-up, the government apologized to the victims, and a court overturned the finding that the deaths were accidental. (Among the revelations: A coroner had assigned an arbitrary time of death for 41 victims, some of whom had not yet died.) That prompted the new inquest, which began in 2014.

On Wednesday, families expressed relief at the prosecution service’s decision. Barry Devonside, whose 18-year-old son, Christopher died, told Sky News that the families had applauded when they learned that “the most senior police officer on that particular day will have charges presented to him.”

He added, “I was frightened, absolutely frightened, that we were going to be let down again.”

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/06/28/world/europe/uk-hillsborough-soccer-stadium-charges.html
 

sim667

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Dec 7, 2010
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Its a difficult one to explain this.......

Around this era there was a general disdain for the working class by politicians and Police and a number of cover ups took place around this current event, and largely it was considered "put to bed".

But the Hillsborough survivors and relatives have fought a long and arduous campaign with numerous court cases, and these convictions are finally coming around as a result of a very in depth investigation, which was needed.

Unfortunately I think we'll see a very similar period of time before there's any justice for Grenfell Towers too. Justice delayed is justice denied.
[doublepost=1498737595][/doublepost]
Justice for Andy and the other 95 at last!!
Its too early to say that until the verdicts.
 

rhett7660

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Jan 9, 2008
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I was not familiar with the incident so I had to look it up on line. What a terrible thing to happen. The question that wasn't answered, at least in the video I saw, is why did they let everyone in at the point they did and why to the location where this occurred. It wasn't mentioned so I ask here. Was this a normal occurrence so nothing was thought of it at the time?

Most of the videos and commentary I was able to view were old and did not take into account what is going on now.
 

yaxomoxay

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Mar 3, 2010
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I remember this, at the time I was 9 and used to go at the soccer stadium (AC Milan!!!) every Sunday. Horrible.
It's so disturbing that it took 28 years to finally get this to a (legal) resolution.

I also have a vague memory of the Heysel soccer tragedy - a fruit of pure evil. My brother remembers it well.
 
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VulchR

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It seems to me that the UK has a hard time valuing the poorer elements of its society. The recent fire is another example of people being treated like trash. Frankly, it is endemic to all the major political parties, but the Tories seem to suffer this flaw the most.

Indeed, it'd be interesting to see what kind of communication went on between Thatcher's Tory government and the Yorkshire police after the tragedy.
 
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Eraserhead

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It seems to me that the UK has a hard time valuing the poorer elements of its society. The recent fire is another example of people being treated like trash. Frankly, it is endemic to all the major political parties, but the Tories seem to suffer this flaw the most.

Indeed, it'd be interesting to see what kind of communication went on between Thatcher's Tory government and the Yorkshire police after the tragedy.
Sames true with America. Letting the bottom half rot with the same income for half a century in an age of unprecedented plenty. Come on.

And France has all those Muslim no-go zones etc etc.

The problem is endemic across the developed world.
 

yaxomoxay

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Sames true with America. Letting the bottom half rot with the same income for half a century in an age of unprecedented plenty. Come on.

And France has all those Muslim no-go zones etc etc.

The problem is endemic across the developed world.
It's endemic all across the globe. It's not specific to any country.
[doublepost=1498773897][/doublepost]
I was not familiar with the incident so I had to look it up on line. What a terrible thing to happen. The question that wasn't answered, at least in the video I saw, is why did they let everyone in at the point they did and why to the location where this occurred. It wasn't mentioned so I ask here. Was this a normal occurrence so nothing was thought of it at the time?

Most of the videos and commentary I was able to view were old and did not take into account what is going on now.
Back then going to soccer stadiums was a mess. Often seats were not assigned and if they were, no one really cared about the seat. Some stadiums didn't even have seats, and people just had to stand. This made tracking of how many people accessed the stadium almost impossible. On top of that, thousands of fake tickets were sold and thousands of people pushed to get in.
I still remember the crowds, and how many times I felt crushed as a child (I was also close from being hit by a small rocket-firework sent towards my face by the opposing fans when I was 12 or so. Gladly my brother saw it and pushed me (I fell to the ground).
Police was often not effective - I can't even begin to count how many cops watched the game and not the crowd. Unless things went pretty bad, they didn't care. They didn't care about fights as long as they were limited. Total ineptitude. Add something to the mix: in many European countries violence inside a stadium was considered a misdemeanor. Outside of the stadium it was a felony, inside of the stadium it was a misdemeanor. Often the only consequence for a fight was for the "fan" to miss one or two games.

Heysel's tragedy is an example of All things going wrong at the same time and is an exemplary study. Organizational, structural, and behavioral things just went wrong.
Cops ignored the warnings, and decided to separate the hoolingans from the opposing team's fans just by a single layered fence. Worse, the opposing fans were mainly families, not opposing hooligans (which could have defended themselves). Plus it was overcrowded. The hooligans became violent and pushed down the fence, causing massive panic and violence. 40 people died, and hundreds were injured. Things were so bad that UEFA decided to (be ready!) keep playing the match in order to distract people and slowly get them out of the stadium. Heysel is important because it is the primary example of what was happening in soccer stadiums back then, just multiplied x10.
Watch some videos on that, be forewarned about the disturbing content.
 
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rhett7660

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@yaxomoxay ok, understand now. The couple of videos I watched did not talk about the ticket and seating being a problem. They mainly focused on the crowds and how everyone went to the one location. Which knowing now what you mentioned, makes sense and from the sound of it, it wasn't an issue from the past so why would it be an issue now.

I could see how going to one of these games could be freaking scary especially given how many people, festive seating, and add alcohol to the mix. Yikes!
 
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The-Real-Deal82

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@yaxomoxay ok, understand now. The couple of videos I watched did not talk about the ticket and seating being a problem. They mainly focused on the crowds and how everyone went to the one location. Which knowing now what you mentioned, makes sense and from the sound of it, it wasn't an issue from the past so why would it be an issue now.

I could see how going to one of these games could be freaking scary especially given how many people, festive seating, and add alcohol to the mix. Yikes!
The Hillsborough disaster was not caused by alcohol and the sheer amount of people. It was caused by a lack of police at Leppings Lane monitoring crowd flow and making sure fans filled all 4 pens. All fans were guided into central pens and when the crowd was out of control, scumbag Duckenfield ordered the main gate be opened allowing hundreds more fans to push into the central pens resulting in a major crush. Despite all this the game was allowed to kick off with fans hearing this the inevitably wanted to get into the game. When it became apparent people were being crushed to death, the police quickly began a smear campaign blaming drunk ticketless fans.

People like my brothers mate were made out to be criminals and survivors were accused of urinating on 'brave cops' as they tried to save lives. Survivors were accused of pick pocketing the dead and the whole blame was callously deflected onto fans with help of scum publications like The Sun newspaper. Nobody learned from 1982 when this nearly happened at exactly the same ground. It beggars belief!!! I hope those responsible get proper sentences for the corruption and misery they've caused!
 

sim667

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Dec 7, 2010
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It seems to me that the UK has a hard time valuing the poorer elements of its society. The recent fire is another example of people being treated like trash. Frankly, it is endemic to all the major political parties, but the Tories seem to suffer this flaw the most.
I don't think its right to say this is a UK only thing, its a worldwide thing.
[doublepost=1498811053][/doublepost]There's a BBC documentary on youtube here: its 2 hours long.

 

elf69

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Jun 2, 2016
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sometimes the UK justice system is a joke.

not the same but....

my brother was almost killed few years back when car driver hit him on his motor bike on way to work.
he was in hospital for 9 months!

she admitted fault.... she got 3 points on license and £90 fine.
my brother only has 80% movement in both his shoulders after breaking scapulars!

UK also has no death penalty.
Sometimes think we need it back like USA!
 

VulchR

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Jun 8, 2009
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...
she admitted fault.... she got 3 points on license and £90 fine.
my brother only has 80% movement in both his shoulders after breaking scapulars!
Ut's not really my place to comment on UK laws since I am not a citizen, but it does seem odd to me that in Scotland one get prosecuted for violating traffic laws but sentencing does not seem to consider the consequence of that violation. Thus, some body falling asleep at the wheel on a deserted country road and hits a tree is treated the same way as somebody falling asleep at the wheel and crashing into a crowd of people. It is as though the latter is considered 'unlucky'.

Indeed, a women near where I live once argued in court that she would not have driven drunk had she not been drunk. I love the eccentricities of the UK....
[doublepost=1498820007][/doublepost]
Sames true with America. Letting the bottom half rot with the same income for half a century in an age of unprecedented plenty. Come on.

And France has all those Muslim no-go zones etc etc.

The problem is endemic across the developed world.
I did not intend to engage in UK-bashing. Things are worse in the US certainly (so many empty garages for lifeless cars, so many homeless...). However, the fact that this is occurring everywhere is hardly comfort to those who are victims of it. On my part, I'd really, really like to see the Tories out of power, for I think they treat the poor the worst of all the UK political parties. The just seem so mean-spirited. The incendiary devices that were attached to the sides of Grenfell Tower by a Tory Council apparently saved £300,000 and allowed for a stylish change in colour (see BBC story). :(
 

Eraserhead

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Nov 3, 2005
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Ut's not really my place to comment on UK laws since I am not a citizen, but it does seem odd to me that in Scotland one get prosecuted for violating traffic laws but sentencing does not seem to consider the consequence of that violation. Thus, some body falling asleep at the wheel on a deserted country road and hits a tree is treated the same way as somebody falling asleep at the wheel and crashing into a crowd of people. It is as though the latter is considered 'unlucky'.

Indeed, a women near where I live once argued in court that she would not have driven drunk had she not been drunk. I love the eccentricities of the UK....
[doublepost=1498820007][/doublepost]

I did not intend to engage in UK-bashing. Things are worse in the US certainly (so many empty garages for lifeless cars, so many homeless...). However, the fact that this is occurring everywhere is hardly comfort to those who are victims of it. On my part, I'd really, really like to see the Tories out of power, for I think they treat the poor the worst of all the UK political parties. The just seem so mean-spirited. The incendiary devices that were attached to the sides of Grenfell Tower by a Tory Council apparently saved £300,000 and allowed for a stylish change in colour (see BBC story). :(
Worse £5k would have bought better aluminium cladding.
 
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rhett7660

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Jan 9, 2008
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The Hillsborough disaster was not caused by alcohol and the sheer amount of people. It was caused by a lack of police at Leppings Lane monitoring crowd flow and making sure fans filled all 4 pens. All fans were guided into central pens and when the crowd was out of control, scumbag Duckenfield ordered the main gate be opened allowing hundreds more fans to push into the central pens resulting in a major crush. Despite all this the game was allowed to kick off with fans hearing this the inevitably wanted to get into the game. When it became apparent people were being crushed to death, the police quickly began a smear campaign blaming drunk ticketless fans.

People like my brothers mate were made out to be criminals and survivors were accused of urinating on 'brave cops' as they tried to save lives. Survivors were accused of pick pocketing the dead and the whole blame was callously deflected onto fans with help of scum publications like The Sun newspaper. Nobody learned from 1982 when this nearly happened at exactly the same ground. It beggars belief!!! I hope those responsible get proper sentences for the corruption and misery they've caused!
It sounds like this all added up to a recipe for disaster. Very sad.
[doublepost=1498836283][/doublepost]
I don't think its right to say this is a UK only thing, its a worldwide thing.
[doublepost=1498811053][/doublepost]There's a BBC documentary on youtube here: its 2 hours long.

Thanks for the full one, the one I watched was 10 minute snippet of this one. This one lays out the complete picture. Thank you.
 
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