Killing Pablo. Killing Saddam. Killing Osama.

Discussion in 'Politics, Religion, Social Issues' started by vrDrew, Sep 7, 2016.

  1. vrDrew macrumors 65816

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    #1
    I just got through watching the excellent second season of the Netflix series Narcos. Which ends with (spoiler alert) Pablo Escobar dead on the roof of a house in Medellin; and his eponymous cartel destroyed.

    As a result, it's now impossible to buy cocaine on the streets of America's cities. Right.

    Watching the series I was struck by how similar the effort to take down Pablo Escobar was to the efforts America exerted in the intervening years to "take down" other individuals, specifically Saddam Hussein and Osama bin Laden. Efforts that, ultimately, were successful in their stated aims: We killed Osama and we killed Saddam.

    And yet just as "killing Pablo" appears to have negligible effect in reducing the flow of drugs to our country; so too does the killing of bin Laden and Saddam Hussein seem to have failed in eliminating Islamic terrorism, or making Iraq (or the Middle East) any less of a dangerous place.

    This isn't to say the United States shouldn't pursue individual criminals and terrorists to bring them to justice. But it should serve, perhaps, as a reminder that individual criminals and terrorists are more frequently a symptom of a problem we as a society or a nation face rather than a root cause.
     
  2. ucfgrad93 macrumors P6

    ucfgrad93

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    #2
    Actually, the Iraqi people hung Saddam after he was found guilty of crimes against humanity.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saddam_Hussein
     
  3. jkcerda macrumors 6502

    jkcerda

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    all efforts in the M_E have NOTHING to do with "terrorism" and everything to do with keeping the petrodollar afloat. so you can forget the "humanitarian" reasons given by the morons in charge.
    I binge watched it on Saturday and finished the whole season that day, it was awesome :D
    --- Post Merged, Sep 7, 2016 ---
    https://www.yahoo.com/tv/narcos-renewed-seasons-3-4-135204700.html?soc_src=social-sh&soc_trk=fb
    wonder if the medellin cartel will be featured next.

    also, just like in the M-E mess you have the CIA running things from the back ground.
     
  4. sim667 macrumors 65816

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    Why didn't you put "Narcos Spoilers" in the thread title? :mad:
     
  5. Populism macrumors regular

    Populism

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    Shirley, you can't be serious.
     
  6. Raid macrumors 68020

    Raid

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    #6
    <obligatory response> Don't call him Shirley! </obligatory response>

    All the issues in the OP are of course larger than one person, you can shock such societal ills by capturing/killing figureheads; but to kill the cause is to win the war.
     
  7. Robisan macrumors 6502

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    #7
    A: What are the next three ghoulish Bill O'Reilly books?
     
  8. vrDrew thread starter macrumors 65816

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    #8


    Yes, more than a few people are suffering a Narcos binge-watching hangover right now.

    Watching it also reminded me of many of the other unfortunate consequences of some of our country's foreign policy and intelligence operations in the past. Like, the covert support we gave to Saddam Hussein during the Iran-Iraq war. Or the weapons and cash we supplied to the Mujahadeen in Afghanistan when they were fighting the Soviets.

    As a viewer, and as a citizen, I'll be honest and say that at the time those things were going on I would have supported US Government policy. That: Yes, anyone fighting the Russian invaders of their country was a "good guy." And that anyone standing up to the crazy Iranian Mullahs who'd taken our Embassy hostage was a "good guy." And therefore worthy of US support and encouragement.

    We can't change the past. But I think it's important that before we go pointing too many fingers, we be honest about what how things were back then.

    But it's more important still to ask ourselves what similar mistakes we might be making today. What ticking time-bombs are we leaving for our children to deal with in twenty years time.
     
  9. DearthnVader macrumors 6502

    DearthnVader

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    I can think of $19 trillion interest bearing ticking time bombs we are leaving for them.
     
  10. vrDrew thread starter macrumors 65816

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    Thinking some more about Pablo Escobar, it's worth considering a few things:

    Not the least of which is that Columbia, as a nation, has made tremendous strides in reducing the level of political and criminal violence that permeated their society. Medellin, for instance, which once rated as the most murderous city in the world, now rank below such US cities as New Orleans in its homicide rate (a somewhat dubious honor, but still.) Columbia also recently announced a peace deal that will hopefully end the 50 year old civil war with FARC. Killing Pablo paid dividends for the people of Columbia, if not necessarily for law enforcement or drug policy here in the US.

    But on the topic of unintended consequences? It hard to beat the issue of Columbia's growing problem with hippopotamuses. Who could have seen that on the horizon back in 1993?
     
  11. Limey77 macrumors regular

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    #11
    A couple of points to make. First regarding the Russians invading Afghanistan, I would suggest you read the book Charlie Wilson's War. Yes, I know they made a reasonable film about it but the book is truly, truly excellent and offers incredible insight into US government workings, CIA workings and he international war. I really can't recommend it highly enough. It is both fascinating and terrifying, how one senator basically financed a secret war totalling billions of dollars without congress ever voting on it or recieving presidential approval. The film was ok but should not have been so much a comedy but a full on drama - this is one of the least well known but very well documented secret histories of the 20th century.

    Second, Trump bangs on about this ridiculous wall - despite there being negative immigration from Mexico. But instead of a wall, the single simplest solution is to legalise marijuana and cocaine. Overnight the cartels can become legit business, no need for all the killings, no smuggling across borders, HUGE tax revenues, increases in drug purity, decrease of low level crime etc, etc.

    The US "war on drugs" created Escobar and the cartels.
     
  12. DearthnVader macrumors 6502

    DearthnVader

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    #12
     
  13. Limey77 macrumors regular

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    #13
    Great tune and a fine man, coincidentally I've shared more than a few joints and many, many beers with the man. He's a good friend of my sister's, who even named her daughter Leyla.
     
  14. DearthnVader macrumors 6502

    DearthnVader

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    Cool, I'm a big fan.
     
  15. Limey77 macrumors regular

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    Me too, there's been several times when I WISHED I could play guitar. Both my sister and her husband do and having both of them and Clapton jamming away has made me soooo jealous. But I'm simply not musically inclined.

    It's a shame because my family and friends have so many musical links. Hell, we were trick or treating with Paul McCartney last year, my local pub is Paul Weller's favourite and many more
    --- Post Merged, Sep 7, 2016 ---
    Hell even my local chemist is the chemist from Madness' House of Fun video.
     

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