Lance Armstrong at center of doping program

Discussion in 'Politics, Religion, Social Issues' started by Ugg, Oct 10, 2012.

?

Is Lance Armstrong guilty of doping?

  1. He's guilty

    59 vote(s)
    77.6%
  2. He's been framed

    17 vote(s)
    22.4%
  1. Ugg macrumors 68000

    Ugg

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    #1
    NYT

    So do you think he's guilty or not? A couple of months ago, I read an article that stated average cycling times during the TdF have dropped in the last few years, presumable because fewer riders are doping.

    Lance has a remarkable and a very marketable story but he's never impressed me as being a great rider, much less a team player. He's arrogant, autocratic and was fixated on the TdF. It's a shame that so many Americans hold him in such high esteem when he was a liar and cheater all along.
     
  2. 184550 Guest

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    #2
    This is why I've never cared for 'professional' sports of any type. The cheating, the doping, the underhandedness, the inside deals, the insane amounts of money wasted, etc...
     
  3. mrkramer macrumors 603

    mrkramer

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    #3
    Considering pretty much everyone in professional sports does it I'm sure he did it too. I'm just not sure why it matters, if everyone else is doping does it really give him an unfair advantage?
     
  4. NickZac macrumors 68000

    NickZac

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    #4
    I'm in agreement. A famous sports player I admired all through my childhood was later found to dope and do a variety of other things that really undermine the principle of integrity.

    As far as Lance Armstrong, there seems to be a lot of info both ways, so it is a very difficult case. With that said, the effects of doping on sports in general has been profound.
     
  5. Ugg thread starter macrumors 68000

    Ugg

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    #5
    Believe it or not, not everyone dopes. Also, even amongst those who do dope, not all are using the same stuff or have the medical support and advice to maximize the substance's effects.
     
  6. Happybunny macrumors 68000

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    #6
    When he first won back in 1999, and there were rumours of doping, I just put it down to French sour grapes. But as the years went by and the rumours only got stronger, I started to wonder. Then after seven wins he stops and I really thought that this was the end of the matter. But the win from Landis opened it up and he has been shown to be nothing more than a fraud.
     
  7. Ugg thread starter macrumors 68000

    Ugg

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    #7

    Lance was never a climber and to see him power up those mountains with almost no effort at all is what started the doubts in my mind.

    It really is a shame in a way because here in the US his foundation has done a lot of good things, unfortunately his fame and the money to start the foundation came from his lies and drug use and even worse, being a drug pusher.




    For those of you who believe he was framed, would you care to give some reasons?
     
  8. 725032 Guest

    725032

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    #8
    This is something you and i can agree on.

    He's a fraud and should be locked up
     
  9. leenak macrumors 68020

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    #9
    Why would you lock someone up for cheating in sports? Banning from the sports is the punishment, losing endorsements, whatever.

    I can understand why people have supported him but obviously the evidence against him is too great to ignore. If you get 1 or 2 guys pointing fingers, then maybe but you get multiple people pointing the finger then he is the guy and is guilty.
     
  10. LethalWolfe macrumors G3

    LethalWolfe

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    #10
    Couldn't this be used to characterize professional anything when there is money and/or prestige on the table? At least people who do this in sports don't tend to bring down whole companies (and sometimes nations) when things fall apart.

    As far as Lance's personality goes... it is what it is. Steve Jobs wasn't a saint yet here we are with our Apple gear talking on an Apple-centric message board.

    On one hand I find it hard to believe that so many people are colluding to frame him but on the other hand I find it hard to believe that he passed hundreds of drug tests and was able to successfully game the system for so long. Part of me wants to believe Lance because of his accomplishments and the symbol of hope he has become to so many people but part of me knows that if something is too good to be true it probably is.

    If there is hard evidence that he doped then that is that, but until then innocent until proven guilty in my book.

    For what it's worth I don't follow cycling at all (I'll recognize a few uber-famous names now and again but that's it).
     
  11. leenak macrumors 68020

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    #11
    I'm not surprised since drug tests only test for certain things, if you don't have the right signature, you won't get a hit. There have been instances for other athletes where more advanced drug tests were used on previous samples and then were able to detect the drugs in the system. Its a bit of a game of cat and mouse where the athlete just has to keep ahead of the drug tests which can be difficult to do but its not impossible.
     
  12. 4JNA macrumors 68000

    4JNA

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    #12
    i hope he didn't, but think he did.

    disappointed. had to take off the livestrong bracelet. i'll toss it in the junk drawer on the off chance that he's proven innocent at some point.
     
  13. LethalWolfe macrumors G3

    LethalWolfe

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    #13
    I say that because so many cyclists from that era that have been brought down yet Lance, whom has been under the most scrutiny for the longest amount of time, hasn't failed a test. Sure, he might be the Houdini of dopping but committing that perfect crime over and over and over again sounds like a very tall order.
     
  14. Ugg thread starter macrumors 68000

    Ugg

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    #14
    Have you read any of the documents released by USADA? Lance was evidently a master at subverting the system to the point where he even dropped out of one race because they were coming to test him.

    What's so damning is that almost everyone that he ever raced with has said that he doped and that he more or less forced others to dope as well. One or two might be just disgruntlement with his abrasive personality. With all of them coming forward, even his best friends, Lance doesn't have a chance in Hades of being innocent.

    I highly suggest you read some of the statements They are very damning.
     
  15. 184550 Guest

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    #15
    No one 'forces' one to dope. :rolleyes:
     
  16. dukebound85 macrumors P6

    dukebound85

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    #16
    not sure how you can make that assesment
     
  17. Ugg thread starter macrumors 68000

    Ugg

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    #17
    If you're a young rider on a team with the "World's Greatest" rider, then, yes, you can be forced to dope or if you don't want to then forced off the team.

    Find some old race footage and watch it.


    NYT has a good summary of Lance's avoidance techniques.
     
  18. tshrimp macrumors 6502

    tshrimp

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    #18
    I admit this is one story I ignored as I don't care much about this sport, but don't they test before and after each race? Did he come out clean?
     
  19. 184550 Guest

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    #19
    Still no. :rolleyes:

    Though it's very interesting that you're arguing this perspective. Is this indicative of something you've done in your past?
     
  20. Ugg thread starter macrumors 68000

    Ugg

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    #20
    Testing is random and if you'd read up on it you'd see that avoidance is pretty easy. Plus, over time the docs have learned of ways to dilute EPO through saline injections as well as small, frequent doses. It's only now with increased test sensitivity that they're able to catch more riders.
     
  21. Ugg thread starter macrumors 68000

    Ugg

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    #21
    I've never ridden a race in my life. I'm not sure how you inferred anything of the sort though, perhaps it was just to go off topic as usual?

    Do you have any idea of the phenomenal pressure in sports to succeed at any cost? To know that if you don't toe the line it could well mean the end of your career because you didn't play along with the big boys? It would seem that you're claiming naivete when it comes to pro sports. Don't waste anyone's time by claiming ignorance. The issue is a serious one and has major repercussions for Armstrong. He could well go to jail for any number of reasons and the empire he has built up is being exposed for what it is. One built on lies.
     
  22. 184550 Guest

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    #22
    You seemed to postulate that one could/ can be forced by older, more experienced professionals into doing something that one knows is illegal/ outlawed and that such actions were commonplace, acceptable and expected.

    My apologies you were solely talking about niche area professional/ competitive cycling. ;)
     
  23. LethalWolfe macrumors G3

    LethalWolfe

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    #23
    Only read what others have written about the docs, I haven't read them myself.
     
  24. Scepticalscribe Contributor

    Scepticalscribe

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    #24
    They are indeed very damning; and there have long been suspicions about Lance Armstrong - and about the means considered necessary in order 'to make it' and be a top rider in professional cycling.

    That depends on how you define the verb "forces". There are many means by which such 'force' can be applied. All sorts of sanctions - rewards as well as punishments - exist when a powerful, ambitions, aggressive individual is not prepared to tolerate dissent, especially if such dissent threatens his power and position. Coercion, sustained pressure, insults, exclusion, isolation, threats, firing, inclusion, rewards, are but a few of the weapons in gthe arsenal of such people in pursuit of their aims.

    Agree.

    That is a good post and well said.

    Come on, Nathan. You must know of situations where someone - a very subordinate someone - was given orders by an arrogant, bullying, selfish and self-righteous superior which they knew were illegal or unethical but which they carried out because they would have suffered for it if they had not done so. And, worse still, in such situations, if the subordinate is caught while carrying out illegal commands, they are invariably hung out to dry while the superior struts to further success, unhindered by conscience or custom.

    The real pity of it is that Lance Armstrong was portrayed as a worthwhile role model, on account of his courageous struggle against cancer; the bottom line is he let them down. Unfortunately, this will further erode the confidence kids might have in such individuals, which is a huge pity, as, now more than ever, kids, especially, need to have people and actions they can look up to and seek to emulate.
     
  25. SomeDudeAsking macrumors 65816

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    #25
    Okay, who are the 7 jokers that voted that Armstrong was framed in this poll? Come on now, be serious. Virtually all the close friends Armstrong had have turned him in with serious evidence that he is no better than a low life thug who ruins the life of people who don't obey him.
     

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