Laughing and crying over spilled milk

Discussion in 'Politics, Religion, Social Issues' started by LizKat, Dec 15, 2016.

  1. LizKat, Dec 15, 2016
    Last edited: Dec 15, 2016

    LizKat macrumors 68040

    LizKat

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    Catskill Mountains
    #1
    Turning to environmental protection issues:

    Q: when is 2500 gallons of cream a hazmat?
    A: when it’s spilled into an upstate creek that’s part of the New York City drinking water system

    http://www.thedailystar.com/news/lo...cle_3f4d07c7-b564-5ad5-bec6-c3d0bccbf22e.html

    EDIT: with photos

    http://www.wbng.com/story/34053358/milk-truck-spills-in-delhi-turns-stream-white

    If there’s any law enforcement agency that didn’t show up to this thing it must be because of the traffic jam on a two-lane road. Ten separate entities were summoned to deal with the incident in total and that’s before any towing or bridge repairs. Just the paperwork expense should be worth another fine. Well, maybe they get to skip this month’s drill.

    What’s also noteworthy is the fact that the plant out at Fraser’s on NYS Route 10 is importing cream from the state of Michigan… trucked there by a driver from Houston, Texas. Meanwhile local dairy farmers continue to have to diversify or sell their farms. Not only has globalization changed the planet, industry consolidation has managed to switch up the small dairy farmers big time.

    And definitely gone are the days of switching off the paddles on the bulk tanks on Saturday night because Sundays were a day off for agencies measuring butterfat, so an excellent time to score a little something for ice cream with Sunday dinner.

    Laughing to think of the feral cats and other critters who may have had the best pre-Christmas breakfast of their lives yesterday if they happened to be hanging out near Platner Brook before the folks who consider cream a hazmat showed up to spoil the fun. There was a light coating of fresh snow along the creekbanks, and it was around 20 degrees, so... ice cream makes a pretty fancy breakfast for the average red fox. :)

    I was going to put this in Current Events but then I realized like almost everything else today, it could be viewed as a political post. Plus, we could springboard this into reasons why we don't need the EPA. One reason might be if you're a red fox that develops a taste for ice cream on the rocks of Platner Brook.

    On the other hand if you're a fan of NYC drinking water than you can be sure we up here were on the job yesterday making sure the cream from Michigan set free by that loose cannnon of a tanker driver from Texas did not manage to despoil the Delaware Watershed's contribution to NY's water supply. No charge from the critters who helped contain the mess before the two-legged law enforcement officials showed up.

    Maybe this wannabe EPA head Scott Pruitt can depend on red foxes and feral cats to keep a lot of stuff out of the water supply for free, who knows. :eek:
     
  2. obeygiant macrumors 68040

    obeygiant

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    #2

    Besides, all your friends are here in the prsi! :)
     
  3. LizKat thread starter macrumors 68040

    LizKat

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    #3
    LOL a few of those are still temporarily among the missing... :( :rolleyes:

    Seriously if Pruitt is confirmed as head of the EPA I will be very disappointed in the US Senate. Like they might care. I'm with Christine Whitman, a former EPA head who was interviewed on NPR the other morning. She said sure there are likely some regs that can be argued as overreach but on the other hand if you think it's fine to just dig a cattle pond wherever you want on your property and to disregard downstream impact on water quality for human beings,,,, we have higher expectations of water quality now in the USA. So you don't want someone topping that agency who's going to focus on deregulation at the expense of public health. There needs to be a considered balance. Pruitt's not that guy, just based on his track record.
     
  4. ibookg409 Suspended

    ibookg409

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    #4
    Was this in Columbia County?
    --- Post Merged, Dec 15, 2016 ---

    Can you show us his track record of jeopardizing the public health? I'm all for deregulating wherever you can while still protecting our resources and not destroying our environment. I'm very much a conservationalist and not an environmentalist.
     
  5. Snoopy4 macrumors 6502a

    Snoopy4

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    #5
    Its just cream. The world will survive.
     
  6. LizKat thread starter macrumors 68040

    LizKat

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    #6

    No, farther northwest, up in Delaware County, headwaters of the Delaware River that feeds NY reservoirs.

    Just Pruitt's track record of ignoring the earthquake swarms in Oklahoma while continuing to rail against the Clean Power Act and advocate for continuation of fracking for fossil fuels qualifies him as anti-public health since there's no longer assurance that fracking cannot affect ground water quality. Even the governor in his own state has become an advocate of renewable energy resources and yet Pruitt takes the money from gas and oil PACs...

    http://www.desertsun.com/story/news.../95200658/?from=global&sessionKey=&autologin=

    His lawsuits while Oklahoma AG are pretty political and most have been tossed out but he persists in filing them anyway, most against Clean Water Act or Clean Power Act, arguing EPA oversteps its authority. Now imagine him as head of EPA and using that authority to reverse what he can of EPA rullings under those acts.

    https://nonprofitquarterly.org/2016/12/09/trumps-choice-epa-ag-scott-pruitts-track-record-oklahoma/
    --- Post Merged, Dec 15, 2016 ---
    Yeah. Cream does kill fish though. Another plus for the hungry fox or an eagle seeing fish struggle to get away from their natural environment when it turns on them. This spill mostly didn't create risk for those predators, however, as there were only three quarts other types of spillage past all that cream.

    At least we know the DEC doesn't play favorites. They tagged the tanker driver for spilling a quart of diesel and two quarts transmission fluid when he put his rig in the creek. You can get nailed for spilling a half-pint doing an oil change around here.

    We aim to keep your drinking water and the ground it runs on nice and clean, and even if we don't.... then we got the water police hanging out and about to make sure it happens anyway LOL.
     
  7. ibookg409 Suspended

    ibookg409

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    #7
    It can still have an environmental impact.
     
  8. shinji macrumors 65816

    shinji

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    #8
    "Speed not reasonable and prudent" in icy conditions while driving a tractor-trailer containing 2500 gallons of cream = great idea
     
  9. chown33 macrumors 604

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    #9
    The world, as a whole, will survive a lot of things.
    That doesn't discount the immediate surrounding effects.

    It's just a 500 megaton nuclear blast. The world will survive.
    (Discounting the immediate and long-term human death toll.)

    It's just the Yellowstone Caldera erupting. The world will survive.
    (Discounting an even larger death toll, and the resulting extreme climate effects.)

    It's just another Chicxulub-scale impact. The world will survive.
    (Discounting everything that resulted from the actual Chicxulub impact.)
     
  10. ibookg409 Suspended

    ibookg409

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    #10
    It's just Trump. The world will survive.:)
     
  11. chown33 macrumors 604

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    #11
    This too shall pass.
     
  12. LizKat, Dec 15, 2016
    Last edited: Dec 15, 2016

    LizKat thread starter macrumors 68040

    LizKat

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    #12

    LOL i wanna believe!



    Once I saw the pictures in the second link I put up, I'm kind of surprised that Texas kid got that load this far from Michigan. Poor kid, he was only around five or six miles from his destination too. They do say the last ten miles of any journey can be the most dangerous... this kid may never have made the trip before but he had to know he was almost there, and he'd already had an adventure not six miles back with that rig since there's a stretch where you make a 90º left onto a steep downgrade for a half mile with a 90º right turn at the bottom; a dirt road to a farm is the equivalent of a runaway truck ramp if a rig's brakes fail there. Somehow he managed that one, and it might have made him a little overconfident for that last little piece of his trip.

    Get this: a pipeline consortium has expressed interest in running a feeder line along that county road --and that brook-- to that creamery to provide natural gas from back up on Franklin Mountain someplace 20 miles north (as the crow flies but not as that line would have to run). Talk about laughing and crying. No one in the area can actually believe they want to lay pipe along that road since it crosses that creek quite a few times. In 2006 the creek ate the whole county road for several miles during the great flood of that summer. They must have been digging asphalt out of the west branch of the Delaware River ten, fifteen miles downstream for months. That pipeline would not likely have withstood the stress of the debris moving through the area. This is part of why we have an EPA, to suggest there are times you contract for truck delivery of propane...
     
  13. Snoopy4 macrumors 6502a

    Snoopy4

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    #13
    Way to go off the deep end there.
     
  14. chown33 macrumors 604

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    #14
    Hyperbole is my new hobby.
     
  15. Desertrat macrumors newbie

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    #15
    Natural gas is not propane. Natgas delivers in gaseous form. Propane delivers as a liquid. Natgas burns cleaner.

    I don't see how a stock pond is a hazard to groundwater or streams. Cows generally pee and poop elsewhere, much moreso than in the pond. (20 years in ranching, on my part. 15 years as a professional engineer working with groundwater geologists and the bug'n'bunny PhDs.) You don't get the nitrate problems from ranch pastures that you can have from feedlots over permeable formations.

    As far as hazard, what's the streamflow where the spill occurred? Sometimes, the solution to pollution can be dilution. :)

    Far more oil and diesel runoff from city streets into streams than from that truck. A legitimate gripe about over-regulation stems from this sort of citation. Picking flypoop out of pepper is a contemptible use of regulatory power. "He ain't chicken-bleep, he just has hen-house ways."
     
  16. LizKat thread starter macrumors 68040

    LizKat

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    #16
    First you have to get the gas safely to the destination. The routes for propane delivery are easier and safer and are all on state roads. The route for the feeder line is 15 miles of state roads followed by 18 miles of county roads crossed by creeks and brooks the whole way. On a smaller scale, it's the same type of problem faced by the consortia wanting to build two parallel 30" pipelines through here for a hundred and twenty miles from Pennsylvania to an exisiting pipeline farther up into the north country of New York State. Those pipelines would have to cross brooks or creeks over 200 times and go over or under various protected wetlands and wildlife refuges as well. So far the DEC refuses to waive a water quality assurance. The companies will probably be back in court soon now that oil prices have ticked up some.

    On the EPA restrictions: There's nothing to prevent anyone from applying for a rule waiver on a case by case basis and they are often granted where the rule and the case make that seem the way to go. Companies do it all the time when they apply for pipeline routes. We've had waivers granted here for ponds sometimes, and even for removal of beaver dams that threatened to inundate outbuildings on property if the dams could get too stressed by high waters in spring runoff. It all depends on the individual case. But New York City's drinking water depends on our adherence to the rules where granting a variance would threaten downstream quality. Over time, residents and businesses up here have learned to adapt. Not without some grumbling, sure. Grumbling is free. Pollution is expensive in the long run when ignored, but when prohibited and enforced, expensive as fines in the short term.

    As far as the citations up here, let them keep writing those tickets I say. You give someone an inch on that stuff and they will definitely take the mile. There are not so many around here now willing to take money and look the other way on illegal dumping from downstate and stuff like that. For one thing if they get caught it's expensive. We still got a bunch of good ol' boys in this county, though, even though the younger ones are more eco-aware and the remaining farmers are mostly into eco-protective behaviors, in part because it can benefit them financially by participating in programs and in part because they often get better results from their work.
     
  17. Zenithal Suspended

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    #17
    Cream would harden at that cold temperature. Physical screen filters + largescale RO system will address it. The cold temperature and natural filtration of upper NY state should limit any biological growth not innate. As an aside, I'm deeply saddened by the loss of 2500 gallons of cream.
     
  18. LizKat thread starter macrumors 68040

    LizKat

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    #18
    Yeah I'm wondering if the guy who brought a ladder down to help the trucker get out the cab thought to bring a little milk pail with him too. Those trout creeks have little pools sometimes that are almost still water, and cream floats. :)

    It's supposed to get down around -2ºF tonight per the zone forecast so around here that means -10 or better. Whatever was running in that creek today better be gone or will like to glaze over in the shallows. Fake frozen yogurt!
     
  19. Zenithal Suspended

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    #19
    It wouldn't be anything like frozen yogurt. Frozen cream is similar to butter but not so. Even if it were fake frozen yogurt. Imagine all the soft chew caramels that could be made with all that cream. I wonder if dairy futures will be affected.
     
  20. LizKat thread starter macrumors 68040

    LizKat

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    #20
    Fake Rocky Road! After all there are likely to be a few chewy pebbles in there. Maybe real rocky road....

    I think dairy futures are safe LOL. All that cream has been disposed of one way or another and every feral cat in the county has cold toes and milk on its whiskers, with or without traces of any hapless trout from the potential cream-kill in that brook. This morning it was twelve below zero around here. Whoever fished the busted tanker truck out of the brook must be happy they didn't have to do it today. Only thing stirring out there is sander trucks and anyone unlucky enough to be working for the USPS or couriers on their hectic pre-holiday rounds. Wind chill is like off the charts and behind that a slower front with a promised 8 inches of snow. Jalapeños will play at dinner, we're done w/ ice cream.
     

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