Liberal Vs Conservative

Discussion in 'Politics, Religion, Social Issues' started by Huntn, Feb 3, 2016.

  1. Huntn Suspended

    Huntn

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    #1
    Liberalism is a political philosophy or worldview founded on ideas of liberty and equality. The former principle is stressed in classical liberalism while the latter is more evident in social liberalism. (wiki link)

    So why does Liberalism have a bad rap among Conservatives? What's wrong with the definition?

    Conservatism (or conservatism) is any political philosophy that favors tradition (in the sense of various religious, cultural, or nationally-defined beliefs and customs) in the face of external forces for change, and is critical of proposals for radical social change. (wiki link)

    I'll critique conservatism in that the problem with "traditional values" is that they often embody prejudice, and advantages that have been traditionally held by specific groups of citizens by virtue of showing up and getting established first and/or based on an unequal playing field created by those with the advantage. In a changing landscape the group that used to have the advantage will take steps contrary to democracy to prevent themselves from being displaced.

    Thoughts? I've gotta run, will add more later.
     
  2. The-Real-Deal82 macrumors 601

    The-Real-Deal82

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    #2
    It seems to be a put down on MR to be a liberal, but I assume it's a culture thing? I would be what is defined as a conservative in the UK but on here I am labelled as a liberal. This is mainly because liberal views are held by nearly all political parties here so it is a kind of redundant label.
     
  3. DUCKofD3ATH Suspended

    DUCKofD3ATH

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    #3
    American Liberalism bears little resemblance to Classical Liberalism. I'm more Classically Liberal than the Dems on this forum:

    Classical liberalism is a political ideology and a branch of liberalism which advocates civil liberties and political freedom with representative democracy under the rule of law and emphasizes economic freedom.​

    American Liberals tend to be socialists who believe "that the state is dangerous when it arrests criminals or wants to limit pornography or abortion, but should be free to regulate our lives in just about any other way. It is also axiomatic for them that, since taxes are an unavoidable aspect of life, any amount of taxation is moral. As long as we democratically elect those who impose the taxes, it doesn’t matter how much they take away from our fellow citizens.”

    American Liberals favor limits on free speech and other authoritarian goals as defined by social justice warriors.

    American Liberals don't respect our military or appreciate the dangers presented by totalitarianism.

    American Liberals don't want American citizens to be able to own guns.

    American Liberals wish Communism had won.

    That's how it seems to me.
     
  4. Renzatic Suspended

    Renzatic

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    #4
    You forgot the Boogyman. He who lurks under beds, and steals our children while they sleep in the night.

    ...I think he might be a conservative.
     
  5. DUCKofD3ATH Suspended

    DUCKofD3ATH

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    #5
    Weak.
     
  6. Renzatic Suspended

    Renzatic

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    #6
    No, the boogyman is quite strong. We must do something about him before it's too late.
     
  7. DUCKofD3ATH Suspended

    DUCKofD3ATH

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    #7
    Thanks for your contribution. Moving on....
     
  8. tunerX Suspended

    tunerX

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    #8
    A liberal and liberalism are not the same thing.

    All of the different types of conservatism start with liberalism as its base components, liberty and equality. Which brand of conservatism are we talking about? liberal, fiscal, social, religious, libertarian, etc. Each one starts with liberty and equality but then you add in the conservative stuff.

    I think it is that most people who say they are "liberals" are actually using the ideals of statism with a mix of socialism and progressivism.
     
  9. Moyank24 macrumors 601

    Moyank24

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    #9
    You should probably get out more...

    I consider myself a "liberal", and I'm definitely American, and this list is a bunch of malarkey, to be quite honest.

    We're all probably closer than we think, in terms of what we want and don't want, but we've allowed ourselves to be split by a bunch of people who don't really give a sh** about us. Don't believe the rhetoric...
     
  10. thewap macrumors demi-god

    thewap

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    #10
    Classical liberalism is a political ideology and a branch of liberalism which advocates civil liberties and political freedom with representative democracy under the rule of law and emphasizes economic freedom.

    I agree.​

    Modern Liberals/ aka progressives, tend to be socialists who believe the state -period.

    Fixed it for you;).
     
  11. cfedu macrumors 65816

    cfedu

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    #11
    I think You pretty much nailed it.

    The GOP is more Liberal than the Democrats nowadays in many ways.
     
  12. bent christian, Feb 3, 2016
    Last edited: Feb 3, 2016

    bent christian Suspended

    bent christian

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    #12
    The U.S. is woefully under educated politically. We don't use words properly. This distorts political discourse. The ruling class is fine with that. People don't know they are using words incorrectly, so it continues on and on.

    Liberal means, simply, to allow many things. Full stop. That is all. This means socially, what we typical think of as "the Left", as well as in economics..."economic liberalism", "neoliberalism" - these are what has been come to be know as "Right-wing economics". Liberalism is centrism. In this sense, it straddles both Left and Right.
     
  13. tunerX Suspended

    tunerX

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    #13
    You should have actually asked for a compare and contrast of

    Progressivism vs Conservativism
     
  14. DUCKofD3ATH Suspended

    DUCKofD3ATH

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    #14
    Sorry. I'm happily married. Appreciate the offer, however.

    It's always refreshing when you're honest. But your opinion is rather hollow. If my list is incorrect, why don't you present what you think is correct?

    This example is evergreen:

    The Venona project revealed the identities of numerous Americans who were spies for the Soviet Union. None of those spies were Republicans. So guess which party they belonged to?

    Your opinion that Dems and Republicans are close as peas in a pod is malarkey.
     
  15. Renzatic Suspended

    Renzatic

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    #15
    No, his is a demonized strawman of the American left, and has very little basis in reality. Hence the boogyman argument.

    The best way to describe American conservatism vs. liberalism in 10 words or less would be "The right tends towards minarchism, the left, a welfare state." The major point of contention between the two would be the powers granted to the federal government. Both are deeply entrenched in the ideals of classical liberalism, which thus makes it highly unlikely we'll ever see a fascist right, or a communist left.
     
  16. DUCKofD3ATH Suspended

    DUCKofD3ATH

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    #16
    You're living in a culture where the language is endlessly malleable. For a while in the 80s the word "bad" could mean that something was bad or that it was good depending on context.
     
  17. bent christian Suspended

    bent christian

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    #17
    No. You are talking about slang. "Liberal", as used in American political language, is not slag. It is a word used with an incorrect meaning attached to it. The Right-wing are Liberals, economically, but they don't believe in democracy as we know it and favor a tight, highly regimented and conformist social structure (not Liberal).
     
  18. Moyank24 macrumors 601

    Moyank24

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    #18
    American Liberals favor limits on free speech and other authoritarian goals as defined by social justice warriors:

    I absolutely believe that people should be free to speak their mind, no matter how much I may disagree with them. I think you may be confusing favoring "limits on free speech" with the consequences of free speech. Ask Natalie Maines what she thinks about that... (meaning, it ain't just liberals)

    American Liberals don't respect our military or appreciate the dangers presented by totalitarianism.

    I absolutely respect our military, and have many friends who have served. Do I think we spend too much on war, and all that goes along with it? Definitely. I also don't think we spend enough, or give enough support to these guys/gals when they get home.

    American Liberals don't want American citizens to be able to own guns.

    I am not against guns at all, and my posting history makes that very clear.

    American Liberals wish Communism had won.

    I'm pretty sure this doesn't deserve a response...
     
  19. thewap macrumors demi-god

    thewap

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    #19
    Nowadays the label liberal is used much too liberally IMO.:cool:

    Totalitarianism comes to mind when I think of modern *liberals* , but definitely
    not in any way representative of classic liberals.
     
  20. Renzatic Suspended

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    #20
    Considering the democrats were the socially conservative party back then, I kinda doubt they'd be Red Friendly.

    ...unless you thought the deeply religious, democrat stronghold that was US South could have harbored communist leanings.
     
  21. citizenzen macrumors 65816

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    #21
    I hope not. Because that would speak poorly about your perceptive abilities.

    It would appear to me that you're falling into the habit (as often happens in these forums) of painting the opposition in extreme and unfair terms, and I simply can't understand why people continue to believe this kind of vilification is acceptable.

    The vast majority of both liberals and conservatives are fine human beings and contributing members of society. Both sides are patriots who love the country and want people to live better lives. They just differ on the exact methods to achieve those ends.

    So everybody ... please stop building straw men. You won't win the internet and you are sabotaging the very real need for cooperation in order for this nation to operate and flourish. Argue and debate like adults. Embrace a little nuance, and we'll all be better off for it.
     
  22. Trik macrumors regular

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    #22
    "If my list is incorrect... present what you think is correct?" Present a list of stereotypes? I'm an American Liberal, and I don't mind if you own a gun. Now your entire argument is invalid. You want some qualifiers in there, or are you just going to argue in absolutes?

    Why not tell us how African Americans are in America while you're at it?
     
  23. DUCKofD3ATH Suspended

    DUCKofD3ATH

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    #23
    Nope. I'm talking about informal English. Liberal and Conservative or Left and Right are terms used informally to describe different political groupings in the US.
     
  24. bent christian Suspended

    bent christian

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    #24
    And only in the U.S. No where else in the English-speaking world does Liberal = Leftist. It means something quite different. Does that tell you something? Oh...they are just doing it wrong. Typical "American" hubris.
     
  25. DUCKofD3ATH Suspended

    DUCKofD3ATH

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    #25
    You make the same mistake that those who say "Islam is a religion of peace" make whenever there's a terror attack by Muslims: It takes a relatively small percentage of those who claim to be American Liberals or Muslims or pick your grouping to cause trouble for which the innocent are tarred.

    But you can also argue that if people are truly desirous of having the bad actors not ruin the reputation of their group, they should take responsibility to control said bad actors.
    --- Post Merged, Feb 3, 2016 ---
    Sorry if us American cowboys offend you, pardner. We're all rugged individualists, even when it comes to our language.
     

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