Libertarians and trash collection

Discussion in 'Politics, Religion, Social Issues' started by P-Worm, Aug 28, 2013.

  1. P-Worm macrumors 68020

    P-Worm

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    #1
    I have quite a few libertarian friends. I don't just mean Ron Paul cheerleaders, I mean like "Atlas Shrugged is my favorite book" libertarians with a capital L. Because of this, I spend a lot of time thinking about the copious fringe cases where a completely free market breaks down. There is one thing I can't think of a single libertarian argument for, and that's garbage collection. So I looked up what someone from Mises had to say about it:

    http://mises.org/daily/3698

    I still can't find a valid argument here. The way I see it, private trash collection has two major problems. First, the obvious issue is that there will be people that don't care one bit about getting rid of garbage. They will let it pile up and this will lead to disease and infestation of neighborhoods while simultaneously dropping land values of the surrounding area. Second, I can't picture how a private system in any way would be more efficient than a public system. In a public system, a company is contracted to pick up garbage for an area. The trucks go down a street and pick up every can along the way and then haul the load to the dump. In a private system, you would undoubtedly have 3-4 companies competing for individual contracts. This would lead to a truck needing to go down a street for 3 or 4 pickups. How is having 3 different trucks visit a street efficient or cost effective?

    There are a fair number of libertarians that peruse the board. What say you?

    P-Worm
     
  2. Blue Velvet Moderator emeritus

    Joined:
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    #2

    My condolences.



    Go ask your libertarian friends if they'd fly libertarian airlines, you know, the ones where pilots and mechanics dont have to be federally certified or have limits on the hours they can fly, the airlines that can ignore federal safety standards, the ones where air traffic isn't managed by the government... let's see them volunteer to fly in Rand Airlines, where the glorious hand of the free market will reveal to us which planes are safe by virtue of the fact that they're not dropping out of the sky.

    Let's see libertarians watch their kids die because they weren't mandated to be vaccinated. Let's see them willingly eat where no health inspections occur. Let's see them drink or swim in polluted water from Rand Enterprises. Let's see them work and live in buildings that don't have to meet fire and safety standards.

    But you and I know they never will, because they're utterly full of it.

    These people are the whiniest whitest entitled bitches around. They'd be the first to complain when their federal roads and bridges were collapsing. Their ignorance of how the world actually works, the one where responsible grownups are in charge, means that they genuinely think that they came into this world unassisted and alone. It's no coincidence that this insane fever dream is at its apex in the United States.
     
  3. NT1440 macrumors G4

    NT1440

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    #3
    Are you going to reimburse me for the coffee I just spit all over my iPad? :mad: :p

    As for the rest of the post, bravo!
     
  4. skunk macrumors G4

    skunk

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  5. Shrink macrumors G3

    Shrink

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    #5
    Nice post...says it for me.:D
     
  6. citizenzen macrumors 65816

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    #6
    I wouldn't have used the term "bitches".
     
  7. Shrink macrumors G3

    Shrink

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    #7
    OK...says it for me, except the word "bitches".

    Better?
     
  8. citizenzen macrumors 65816

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    #8
    I wasn't trying to speak for you.

    If you prefer "bitches" then don't let me talk you out of it.

    It's just a bit too coarse for my taste.
     
  9. localoid macrumors 68020

    localoid

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    #9
    I've often been tempted to seek to randomly "borrow" some of the more grade A, prime + word snippets that I read on various Internet forums, combining them with music as an art project that I'd likely call "It Came From the Internet"...

    But I must say,your latest written work deserves to be a stand-alone mini operetta.

    Bravo. Bravo, indeed.
     
  10. 4JNA, Aug 28, 2013
    Last edited: Aug 28, 2013

    4JNA macrumors 68000

    4JNA

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    #10
    darryl and my other brother darryl


    it's not. i live in an area that actually does this, and it sucks. lots. we have 4 different companies that collect on my street, 3 of those use a separate truck for recycle and rubbish. so every Wednesday morning starting at 2am and lasting till around 11am, i have 7 separate trash trucks come rumbling by my home. just about drives me nuts. looniest system i've ever seen.



    epic post, clipped as to not re-quote the whole thing... first thing that popped into my mind when reading it was Bob Newhart.

    that is one funny guy, and spot on in this instance. scary stuff for sure.
     
  11. .Andy macrumors 68030

    .Andy

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    #11
    Thread was off to a cracking start :D
     
  12. Zombie Acorn macrumors 65816

    Zombie Acorn

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    #12
    I fail to see how this scenario is any different than highways.
     
  13. citizenzen macrumors 65816

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    #13
    I was thinking the very same thing.

    Garbage collection is exactly like a highway.

    :confused:

    :rolleyes:
     
  14. Sydde macrumors 68020

    Sydde

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    #14
    Well, curses, I was deceived by the thread title, I was expecting a discussion on how we deal with our excess Libertarians.
     
  15. Zombie Acorn macrumors 65816

    Zombie Acorn

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    #15
    When dealing with public funding vs. Libertarian ideas it really is.
     
  16. iMikeT macrumors 68020

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    #16
    From a Libertarian's perspective, people should be free to wallow in their own trash if they want to.


    There's a radio host named Sam Seder that regularly challenges Libertarians to call in and argue their position and it often ends in hilarity. Here are a few examples:


     
  17. Eraserhead macrumors G4

    Eraserhead

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    #17
    Private roads are equally insane.
     
  18. Shrink macrumors G3

    Shrink

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    #18
    Since you quoted me in your post, I assumed that you were speaking to me.

    My mistake!

    The use of the word was not in my post, but rather in the post that I quoted...but since you quoted me, I figured I should respond.
     
  19. Zombie Acorn macrumors 65816

    Zombie Acorn

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    #19
    So is paying for a bombing run in Syria and ongoing campaigns in Afghanistan and Iraq.

    So is allowing corporate entities to control the entire government and to allow the government to spy on its own people.
     
  20. ChrisWB macrumors 6502

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    #20
    Yes. I agree with this completely.

    However, a libertarian might argue that corporations should have the freedom to influence the government. Any limit (regulation) on that freedom would be contrary to the libertarian ideal of freedom.
     
  21. citizenzen macrumors 65816

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    #21
    If you're talking about underlying philosophy, then I can see your point. If you're talking about practical application, then I'd need more explanation.

    What would libertarian garbage collection look like? Where would the garbage get dumped? What decision-making body (if any) would determine this? How would long-range planning come into play?

    Then please explain how this would be just like a highway. Because I'm having a hard time filling in the blanks of your very sketchy answers.

    Another example that I'd like to bring up is space exploration. Our government spent millions of dollars and years in research and development before the first man was launched into space. We then spend many more years exploring space and improving the technology, allowing us to go to the moon and orbit the first space stations.

    Could a libertarian government do the same? If you believe they could, then please explain how it would be organized and funded.
     
  22. AustinIllini macrumors demi-god

    AustinIllini

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    #22
    Yes, let's all vote up the oversimplified post. People today choose to not get vaccinated and IMO they should be allowed to choose that. If their kid gets measles, maybe they'll want to be vaccinated. Government regulation doesn't stop people from not vaccinating themselves now. An airline that crashes would no longer be able to do business and the "safest" airline would be the most successful. You go to restaurants every day that violate health codes. Their inspectors are lazy and easily corruptible and a waste of your and my money. If your employer is responsible for your work safety, building will be more likely be up to code. You're a racist. I'm not white.

    I'm not saying this would happen. Democrats don't pull for strict democracy, Libertarians don't want anarchy.

    And on to OPs original question. If there's money to be made doing it, someone will do it. Someone will pick up the garbage. In fact efficiency will likely improve if multiple companies bid for jobs.

    A poster complained about multiple garbage trucks going through a neighborhood. Almost every day FedEx, UPS, and the US Mail drive through my neighborhood, and I'm supposed to be upset if a garbage goes through my neighborhood once a day four days a week? Give me a break.

    And also, I would absolutely live in that fictitious country if it were in less debt, had a healthier economy, was less active in global war, and had politicians not corrupted by big business (this society would have less powerful politicians) who could "cross the aisle" on issues that matter.

    We complain because Democrats are liars and Republicans are idiots. If not agreeing with you guys makes us "bitches", so be it. I hope you are enjoying are large broke government that starts unnecessary wars and spies on its own people as well as the people it doesn't govern in other countries.
     
  23. Zombie Acorn macrumors 65816

    Zombie Acorn

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    #23
    Regional planning, everyone has to dump their garbage, and laws can be placed on the books to compel those who do not. I don't think many Libertarians subscribe to a wild west style government that is being portrayed. This would put an end to exclusive government contracts with unions, yes, but they would be free to compete for regional garbage collection contracts.

    If there is a market for space exploration, private industry will probably go there.

    http://www.spacex.com/

    Now, should a federal entity be in charge of the space program? Probably. I don't think anyone is advocating for a full on Libertarian society, just like implementing socialistic ideas doesn't necessarily mean you have to go full tilt communist.
     
  24. citizenzen macrumors 65816

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    #24

    Everyone has to?

    Laws to compel people?

    Sounds like libertarians aren't so different after all.
     
  25. Tomorrow macrumors 604

    Tomorrow

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    #25
    That doesn't sound to me like a "public system."
     

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