London: Over half of gun crimes committed by black men, only 12% of the population

Discussion in 'Politics, Religion, Social Issues' started by likemyorbs, Apr 25, 2011.

  1. likemyorbs macrumors 68000

    likemyorbs

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    #1
    Just read an article that says black men in London commit more than half of street crimes and gun crimes. They make up only 12% of londons population. These statistics are even higher than in the US and they can't blame slavery and Jim crow laws in London like they love to do here. What is the possible reasoning behind this? Very interesting.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukn...esh-light-on-link-between-crime-and-race.html
     
  2. edifyingGerbil macrumors regular

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    #2
    The main thing, sadly, is the lack of positive male role models (most gun crime is committed by black men, so Aunt Jemima wouldn't be suitable for them, not sure about Uncle Ben).

    I think it's mainly the fact that they want to emulate the glamour that they see in music videos by their only available role models, and materialists aren't the best role models.

    Goodluck Johnathan would be a great role model but I doubt most white people in the UK have ever heard of him, never mind the black people...
     
  3. likemyorbs thread starter macrumors 68000

    likemyorbs

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    #3
    But why is that?? Why is there an issue in black communities (and apparently not just in the US) where there is a lack of men wanting to be fathers. As for the aunt jemina and uncle ben reference, not sure what you meant by that but came off as a bit racist.
     
  4. edifyingGerbil macrumors regular

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    #4
    Really? That's funny... Well, it would be, that's humour!

    It's not an issue in other black communities, for instance Kenya, or Nigeria, or many others including Zuid Afrika.

    As it pertains to gang culture, it's an issue of strength and the ephemeral notion of respect. Unfortunately their definition of respect comes from movies that they've seen or songs they've heard, rather than the respect afforded someone who actually accomplishes something positive instead of how violent he is.

    People who are feared are often respected, people who are respected are not always feared.
     
  5. NT1440 macrumors G4

    NT1440

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    #5
    Congrats, that was probably the most racist thing I've ever seen here in PRSI.
    :eek:
     
  6. edifyingGerbil macrumors regular

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    #6
    It's a joke, why is it racist? It's satirical, meant to highlight the lack of positive role models, that's why I used Aunt Jemima, the pancake lady, and Uncle Ben, he of the famous rice producing dynasty.

    If that offended you you need to grow a bladder.
     
  7. FreeState macrumors 68000

    FreeState

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    #7
    You really think less than 50% of gun violence is committed by black men in those countries? You might want to go look at the demographics of those countries.

    Why does gun violence effect the black communities? Prejudice, poverty and lack of access to societal goods others have among many other reasons.

    PS: your "joke" is racist and not a joke. Not only is your premiss racist its sexist as well. One does not need positive roll models of both sexist to be non-violent, one needs love and acceptance.
     
  8. edifyingGerbil macrumors regular

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    #8
    London: Over half of gun crimes committed by black men, only 12% of the population

    and you might want to read the title of the thread perhaps?

    I guess Americans are more obsessed with race than Europeans....
     
  9. likemyorbs thread starter macrumors 68000

    likemyorbs

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    #9
    1) Prejduice- BS. Plenty of successful blacks out there. The race card is officially invalid.

    2) Poverty- Yes, but why is the question? How is it that other races don't have such a huge poverty issue when living in western countries, but so many blacks can't get themselves out of it?

    3) Access to societal goods- How so? They're not exactly in concentration camps.
     
  10. FreeState macrumors 68000

    FreeState

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    #10
    Just because some are successful does not mean all can be. There is plenty of racism still around in most countries, and yes it does effect the less off more than those that are well off.

    Because Blacks are not all the same. You cant lump people of one race all in one group and expect them to all to have the same results. There is a history in the US of racism that still effects many black Americans. Many black Americans can't afford to go to college for example. Poverty is a vicious cycle that preys on its self.

    Poverty - look up computer ownership by race. Look up access to books, education, nutritional information etc by race.
     
  11. likemyorbs, Apr 25, 2011
    Last edited: Apr 25, 2011

    likemyorbs thread starter macrumors 68000

    likemyorbs

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    #11
    Because some are successful does not mean all can be? That's crap. I'm not lumping them into one group, i'm saying their race has a disproportionate amount of poverty compared to others. And we're not even talking about the US, this thread is about Britain. Many blacks in Britain are immigrants, unlike in the US. So they have no history of anything there.
     
  12. NT1440 macrumors G4

    NT1440

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    #12
    You don't understand how that could come off as racist? The many successful black role models around today simply don't exist in your world view somehow?
     
  13. torbjoern macrumors 65816

    torbjoern

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    #13
    Ah - but it isn't as many as 50 % of the gun crimes that are done by black men. This is just racist propaganda from a statistics-generator which has been pre-programmed to disfavour people with non-English names. The next statement will probably be that more than half of the honour killings in the United Kingdom are done by people from Pakistan or Arab countries, which will be just as absurd. In some cultures, it's acceptable (or even expected) to use violence to get what one wants, and we have to tolerate each other as we are. Dialogue and Understanding.
     
  14. stroked, Apr 25, 2011
    Last edited: Apr 25, 2011

    stroked Suspended

    stroked

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    #14
    Schools, churches, and libraries all have computers and books. There are several nutritional programs for the poor. most of the time they are abused, and it is spent on garbage, or sold for $.50 on the dollar.
     
  15. AP_piano295, Apr 25, 2011
    Last edited: Apr 25, 2011

    AP_piano295 macrumors 65816

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    #15
    I'll agree some of the comment's weren't in the best taste. But take a step back and look at some of the numbers they're really are some worrying disparities between black communities and other communities in the US (and apparently Britain as well).

    http://articles.cnn.com/2009-04-08/...ck-unwed-mothers-wedding-dress/2?_s=PM:LIVING

    Almost 80% of black women give birth outside of wedlock. Which is roughly twice the average rate and 3 times the rate of white women. And a dis-proportionate number of crimes are committed by black men.

    I'm NOT trying to claim that there aren't successful well educated black people out there. Obviously there are lots of them (including our current president) but your being delusional if you cannot recognize there are some very serious problems in the black community.

    One obviously needs to consider factors like poverty, lack of education etc. And even today there are certainly lingering problematic ripples from slavery and segregation.

    But there are cultural issues which members of the black community are going to have to confront.

    --> Entertainment Role Models - There is a massive shortage of visible role models in the black community. Don't get me wrong I love rap and hip hop but it is abundantly clear that much of this music glorifies woefully poor behavior.

    --> Language (you might be able to lump this in with education) I would never hire someone who can't speak passable English but never the less this ridiculous cultural lingo persists and propagates.

    There are plenty of other problems to consider, but its seriously important that we start discussing this ****. Because the issues definitely aren't going go away if we close our ears and scream LALALALA !!
     
  16. Burnsey macrumors 6502a

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    #16
    There are plenty of successful white people as well as plenty of white people just getting by. What is your point? What do you think the reason for these statistics is?
     
  17. AP_piano295 macrumors 65816

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    #17
    I hardly think you know what percentage of the time these programs are abused.

    Are these programs sometimes abused? Certainly and it's a problem but unless you have numbers don't claim that these social programs are largely in vain.
     
  18. steviem macrumors 68020

    steviem

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    #18
    But culture is not above the law of the country you are currently in. If you use violence to get your on way in a country which has zero tolerance of it, you should be punished in accordance with those laws.

    In regard to the Aunt Jemima/Uncle Ben thing. I would be willing to say that most Black people in the UK don't know these brands were formed from slave based stereotypes. I'd also say that these people aren't positive black role models. I'd say Condaleeza Rice and Barack Obama would be much better role models than stylized remnants of a time when slavery was seen as being ok in the Southern States.

    Also, with kids not able to get into college in the US, my fiancée used to work for an organization which helped minority kids prepare for and get into colleges. She found that Black males were more likely to get free rides than black females, some of the boys had awful back stories with little male positive role models but with the right encouragement for them, they were able to do well through school and get into colleges. Unfortunately not enough people are willing to put their time and effort into this. I would love to volunteer in the future and help kids in the area I'll be living in get into college, but I'm afraid with my background (white british/irish and british accent) it would be hard for the boys to relate to me. It is something I'd love to try though, hopefully introducing rugby in the area too, a game which has the 'positive' aspects of being in a gang, but none of the negative ones.

    Another thing, gun ownership in the UK is very rare. So the fact that gangs which unfortunately have a make up (proportionally in London) of Black, Turkish, Kurdish and White boys means that gang members are more likely to be carrying weapons than other members of the population. In Manchester and Liverpool it's different with poor white kids from council estates being the main issue.

    I think papers like the Telegraph and to a much higher degree, The Daily Mail, like to sensationalise statistics like this. Unfortunately they should be doing more to find ways of helping people rather than perpetuate the stereotypes and generate fear.
     
  19. likemyorbs thread starter macrumors 68000

    likemyorbs

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    #19
    I already said my point multiple times, the numbers are completely disproportionate whether you want to face it or not. And i don't believe for a second that it's because of racism, i think its a crap excuse and it's played out. I don't know what the reason is, that's why i started this thread. To get some input from everyone. You have to admit that the number of blacks committing violent crimes compared to their small population in their countries is a bit baffling. If you want to blame it on "oppression" that hasn't existed for a long time, while many blacks are successful and productive citizens unbothered by "oppression", then go for it, i just don't buy it.
     
  20. torbjoern macrumors 65816

    torbjoern

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    #20
    Do you have any idea of how racist and xenophobic that sounds?

    (seems like you got my point, though, and good on you for that)
     
  21. steviem macrumors 68020

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    #21
    So if I go to Norway, stab someone because of some arbitrary reason. What would you want to happen when my defence is 'Well when someone disrespects me or my friends, we stab them, so in our culture, that's ok.'? Just let me carry on about my business? What if I killed your parents or someone close to you? Would you be ok with it because my defense is 'it's my culture to kill another person'.

    There is a line between respecting a culture and allowing violent crime just because you're afraid to seem racist. The culture and acceptable behaviour in Europe is that it's not ok to cause other people physical harm for any reason. If you are on holiday in Europe and from another culture, then you should respect the culture of that country. Laws based around violence are there because of our basic human rights. We have a right to live our life without the threat of violence. We have the right to go into a chicken shop and not be shot in the throat. If a white person shoots someone I love, or anyone in general, guess what? I want them to go to prison for it. This isn't a race or culture thing for me. You can't go around using violence to get your own way.
     
  22. Eraserhead macrumors G4

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    #22
    Britain is very class based, and is probably racist too. Black people here are generally poor and don't do particularly well at school as well.
     
  23. NT1440 macrumors G4

    NT1440

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    #23
    Of course these things need to be discussed openly and dealt with. The undertones of racism and stereotyping needs to be kept out of the process, however, as to make sure any real reforms are made.
     
  24. CorvusCamenarum macrumors 65816

    CorvusCamenarum

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    #24
    Why is it racist and/or xenophobic to point out unpleasant trends?

    In the US, black offenders make up nearly 30% of all arrests despite comprising only 12.5% of the general population. What's interesting is that if we break it down into pre-and post age 18, the percentages are roughly the same. (sources from 2008-9 data - wiki and FBI

    The trend continues if we go across the pond - (source - BBC) I had trouble finding figures for adults, but:
    Now, let's look at Sweden. It's difficult to get precise statistics because of the way Sweden records criminal activity, but this article extrapolates the crime rate attributable to immigrants in Sweden. To wit:
    We see the same pattern in three different countries. It doesn't behoove us to simply cry "racism" when confronted with something we don't want to see. We do better for everyone, not just the affected group, to attempt to find the root of the problem and properly address it.

    While I appreciate the correlation between poverty and crime, that doesn't adequately explain why Sweden with its incredibly generous welfare system trends the same way as countries with less extensive benefits.
     
  25. neiltc13 macrumors 68040

    neiltc13

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    #25
    London is not representative of the rest of the UK at all. It skews almost every figure released that is related to population. I've never seen anyone with a gun, I don't know anyone with a gun and I doubt I ever will.

    This is always going to be the case when a single city has over 12% of the country's population.
     

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