Losing Sovereignty?

Discussion in 'Politics, Religion, Social Issues' started by dukebound85, Dec 21, 2007.

  1. dukebound85 macrumors P6

    dukebound85

    Joined:
    Jul 17, 2005
    Location:
    5045 feet above sea level
    #1
  2. abijnk macrumors 68040

    abijnk

    Joined:
    Oct 15, 2007
    Location:
    Los Angeles, CA
  3. 4JNA macrumors 68000

    4JNA

    Joined:
    Feb 8, 2006
    Location:
    looking for trash files
    #3
    screw 'em. if al gore is right, they will be under water in a few years anyway. ;)
     
  4. yellow Moderator emeritus

    yellow

    Joined:
    Oct 21, 2003
    Location:
    Portland, OR
    #4
    This topic seems more at home, to me, in the Political forum.

    Start up the forklift!
     
  5. irmongoose macrumors 68030

    irmongoose

    Joined:
    Dec 3, 2001
    Location:
    Sometimes Tokyo, sometimes California
    #5
    Well, consider the fact that this country's government has no respect for the sovereignty of a lot of other nations and has recently decided that it has the right to police the world. There isn't much to complain about here.

    Besides, what kind of idiots engage in online gambling, anyway?

    irmongoose
     
  6. skunk macrumors G4

    skunk

    Joined:
    Jun 29, 2002
    Location:
    Republic of Ukistan
    #6
    That, coming from an American, is rich indeed. Have you not noticed what your country has been doing these last sixty years?
     
  7. mactastic macrumors 68040

    mactastic

    Joined:
    Apr 24, 2003
    Location:
    Colly-fornia
    #7
    When we do it, it's just a helpful suggestion. Backed up by a bayonet of course.

    When someone else does it, it's trampling on our soverign rights.
     
  8. skunk macrumors G4

    skunk

    Joined:
    Jun 29, 2002
    Location:
    Republic of Ukistan
    #8
    I apologise for having missed the subtle distinction. Must've blinked... ;)
     
  9. pseudobrit macrumors 68040

    pseudobrit

    Joined:
    Jul 23, 2002
    Location:
    Jobs' Spare Liver Jar
    #9
    Your country had much more time at the helm of the Good Shippe Hypocrite. I suspect by-and-by we'll run it aground just the same.
     
  10. SMM macrumors 65816

    SMM

    Joined:
    Sep 22, 2006
    Location:
    Tiger Mountain - WA State
    #10
    Several years ago in Seattle, a young Chinese lad set fire to his parent's Chinese foods warehouse. The building was quickly engulfed in flames. Firemen arrived and began attacking the fire. The on-sight commander made an unfortunate error in judgement and sent a hose team in too early, and not studying the building drawing long enough to realize there was a basement. Fires often start in basements and that was the case with this one. The floor gave way and they were sadly killed. It was a tragic day for the entire city.

    The ensuing investigation quickly led police to the likely suspect and motive (insurance money to pay-off gambling debts). The young man was traced to Brazil. Seattle began extradition proceeding to have him returned to Seattle for four counts of aggravated first-degree murder, all possibly carrying the death sentence.

    Brazil's extradition treaty with the U.S. has a provision, which requires the person being returned is prosecuted and punished similar to their laws. The U.S. has similar restrictions. Their law for first-degree murder does not view a crime as more heinous, just because a public servant is involved. Our laws used to be that way before we became more focused on the revenge component of sentencing. It was obvious that Martin Pang had no intention of hurting anyone. He even went out of his way to insure no one would be working the fateful evening. By statute, that does not satisfy the requirements of premeditation.

    Anyway, Brazil refused to extradite him for the charges as written, and considering he was requesting asylum. The people in Seattle were enraged. Before long the state's Attorney General and Governor were involved. Then the WA Congressional delegation and US State Department joined in the fray. It became a argument over whether another Country should be able to force the US to honor their laws, and the agreement we had made with the extradition treaty.

    I remember participating in more than a couple workplace debates over this. I also recall making the point that America frequently refused extradition for similar reasons, or even much weaker ones; the vast array of political criteria leading to asylum. What I observed during that short period in time was a reinforcing view of imperial America, and how deep that feeling was in some people.

    In some ways, I would like to see all Americans kicked in the butt, and sent overseas to witness and experience something other than the US. That is impractical, of course. It would also be unconstitutional. Yet, I see so many Americans that would really benefit from seeing a world, more than 100 miles from their 'front porch'.
     
  11. Desertrat macrumors newbie

    Joined:
    Jul 4, 2003
    Location:
    Terlingua, Texas
    #11
    Hey, we'd save a ton of money if we quit entering into defense treaties, totally ignored genocide and left organizations like NATO and the UN.
     
  12. skunk macrumors G4

    skunk

    Joined:
    Jun 29, 2002
    Location:
    Republic of Ukistan
    #12
    That has absolutely nothing to do with it, as I'm sure you know, deep down. You've done f-all about genocide, anyway.
     
  13. JurgenWigg macrumors 6502

    JurgenWigg

    Joined:
    May 20, 2006
    Location:
    Delaware
    #13
    This is why i'm so afraid of Ron Paul...

    He's all about sovereignty, and thus, all about disrespecting our allies and trade partners.

    The WTO, the ICC, the UN, NAFTA, the World Bank, they're all concessions of sovereignty, but they're all extremely useful.

    The US has won something like 21 of the last 23 trade appeals to the WTO, why would we quit that Ron Paul?!

    But back to the issue at hand, as an American, I don't understand why we insist upon putting our law of the land over all others, like others are somehow less legitimate...
     
  14. mpw Guest

    Joined:
    Jun 18, 2004
    #14
    Are you really talking about the British Empire? Wow, I know history's important, but why can't people let go? When a modern nation today makes a bad law they can't turn round when called on it and say "But your country did this 500years ago"

    Surely nation states should be thinking about how their actions stack up in today's world not historically? I hope so, or Belgium must have enough credit to get away with a couple of major conflicts.
     
  15. paddy macrumors 6502a

    paddy

    Joined:
    Jun 25, 2005
    Location:
    TN
    #15
    Try 30. Sorry, but I couldn't resist :eek:
     
  16. mpw Guest

    Joined:
    Jun 18, 2004
    #16
    30years is still within living memory and some political careers could be more than 30years long, so I wouldn't have such an issue with 30years worth of history being used in an argument, but I still think that three decades is long ago enough that actions then shouldn't be used as today's yardstick.
     
  17. paddy macrumors 6502a

    paddy

    Joined:
    Jun 25, 2005
    Location:
    TN
    #17
    Fair enough, it just seemed from that quote that you were choosing to ignore events of (under)30 years ago. My bad.
     
  18. mpw Guest

    Joined:
    Jun 18, 2004
    #18
    No the 500years bit could be just as easily 50years, 5,000years etc.
     
  19. Desertrat macrumors newbie

    Joined:
    Jul 4, 2003
    Location:
    Terlingua, Texas
    #19
    Why, skunk! Now we learn that all the yowl and howl about Milosevic and genocide was nothing but a bunch of mouth music? Saddam & Kurds was a Broadway musical? Or is it some sort of dinner dish?

    People keep hollering about the bad ol' U.S. and how we meddle in other countries' doings and ignore international law, etc., etc., ad infinitum ad nauseum. I merely suggested that if we "all came home" we could save a bunch of money and please the world by no more of our meddling. Seems pretty factual to me...

    :D, 'Rat
     
  20. Iscariot macrumors 68030

    Iscariot

    Joined:
    Aug 16, 2007
    Location:
    Toronteazy
    #20
    There's a huge difference between taking action for humanitarian interests, and taking action under the guise of humanitarian interests.
     
  21. skunk macrumors G4

    skunk

    Joined:
    Jun 29, 2002
    Location:
    Republic of Ukistan
    #21
    Funny you should mention these two instances: Milosevic's trial was nothing whatever to do with genocide, and was conducted in a court in which the US does not even accept it is safe to try its own people.
    http://www.guardian.co.uk/comment/story/0,,1146238,00.html

    and of course genocide was not even mentioned as a reason to invade Iraq, besides which Saddam Hussein's trial and execution was also a travesty of due process and justice carried out for nothing but revenge and political expediency by a court which was not competent to try him.

    These kinds of "justice" do not serve the cause of righteousness, rather they serve to further obscure and obfuscate the real motives of those who engage in the conflicts which bring them about. Thanks, but no thanks.
     
  22. Fuzzy14 macrumors 65816

    Fuzzy14

    Joined:
    Nov 19, 2006
    Location:
    Renfrew, Scotland
    #22
    I am reminded of a story from the book Mr Nice, where Howard Marks was extradited from Spain to America for being a non-American transporting marijuana from a non-American country to a non-American country using non-American colleagues and laundering the money using non-American means.

    Was there not a similar situation earlier this year with the Nat West Three, where the were extradited to USA for an alleged fraud that took place on British soil and despite their employers not wanting to persue the crime? However there isn't a reciprocal extradition treaty for Britain to detain American citizens.
     
  23. pseudobrit macrumors 68040

    pseudobrit

    Joined:
    Jul 23, 2002
    Location:
    Jobs' Spare Liver Jar
    #23
    Do you see me giving the U.S. a pass for ****ing up the world ever down here? No. You conveniently left out the second sentence of my post.

    I'm saying that U.S. imperialism is on the wane and we should hold that in perspective. If I as a U.S. citizen am unable to criticize any other government or world leader for their actions because of the actions of my own, then who is anyone to demand good behaviour from anyone? It's not like there's any government free of sin in the world.
     
  24. solvs macrumors 603

    solvs

    Joined:
    Jun 25, 2002
    Location:
    LaLaLand, CA
    #24
    I'm with most of you, like we're one to talk.
     
  25. skunk macrumors G4

    skunk

    Joined:
    Jun 29, 2002
    Location:
    Republic of Ukistan
    #25
    Belgium has already used up any credit it may have had. Have you seen "Apocalypse Now"? That was based on "The Heart of Darkness", a book set in the hell-hole that was the Belgian Congo, personal fiefdom of King Leopold and possibly the most egregious case ever of colonial cruelty and mismanagement.
     

Share This Page