Louis C.K. Crossed a Line Into Sexual Misconduct, 5 Women Say

Discussion in 'Politics, Religion, Social Issues' started by jdillings, Nov 9, 2017.

  1. Thomas Veil macrumors 68020

    Thomas Veil

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    #51
    Indeed. This is starting to remind me very much of the Catholic Church pedophilia scandal. People knew it was going on, nobody wanted to talk...but when the flood gates opened, hoo boy!

    I think Louie did the right thing. He didn't dissemble, he owned up to what he did, apologized and promised to consider how to deal with his behavior. All the other handsy people need to take a lesson from how he's handling this.
     
  2. ucfgrad93 macrumors P6

    ucfgrad93

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    #52
    Please, Hollywood, protected Weinstein for decades, celebrate Polanski & Woody Allen, etc.
     
  3. Scepticalscribe Contributor

    Scepticalscribe

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    #53
    As @BaldiMac - quoted below - points out, it is very hard to say that kind of "no" to a superior who is in a position of power over you.

     
  4. LizKat macrumors 68040

    LizKat

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    #54
    Yah... like 25 minutes or so into Primary Colors....

    Campaign strategist is bird-dogging a worker, trying to entice her to meet up with him later, suggesting a cozy room he could take her to. She's trying to keep working and is brushing him off. Finally he decides to go for it.

    He: hey ya wanna walk the snake?

    [She looks at him -- wary, puzzled]

    He: I'm tellin' ya baby I got a python in there...

    [zip] (yep, right out on the campaign office floor, there are others present_

    [a few seconds pass, enough for her to make an assessment and construct a riposte]

    She: Gee, I've never seen one that... old ... before.

    Whole room erupts in cheers and catcalls...

    But see that's not how it usually works in real life. Harassment is often done in perhaps tenuous privacy, and it's not funny… it’s really alarming. We're shocked and don't know what the hell to do really. We don't have some laugh line ready to roll out. If we're lucky some other woman has already taken us aside and said don't ever be alone in a room with X for any reason. But we're not always that lucky.

    Of course there will be more revelations and of course some of them will be politicos and from both sides of the aisle, and some of it's already out there, with the offenders sometimes but not always left unnamed.

    When they've been named and the story's been out in the public, it's usually because all they did was tell a sexually suggestive joke --maybe a joke-- and at least act like they had no clue it could actually be regarded as offensive. I believe Senator McCaskill has mentioned and written about a few incidents like that which had occurred during her earlier state legislative career. But sexual harassment is ubiquitous in politics, not just the entertainment (and other) industry. I have a feeling that industry is possibly more reined in on this stuff than are our legislative chambers, which is just so wrong and benighted. These guys have (reluctantly?) acceded to making rules to tone down hostile workplaces but they don't follow those rules themselves?

    It's not like they don't know this has gone on in the House and Senate and lower legislative chambers as well. Do they think maybe some guy like Robert Packwood was the end of it? They know better. There's both older and plenty more recent history than the 1990s for them to recall. It's why this Roy Moore brouhaha in front of the December special election in Alabama makes them so nervous in the Senate. Moore’s not even elected yet but he's signaling he’s bringing that sort of baggage in the front door? The Senate ethics committee ran up reams of records dealing with the Packwood harrassment accusations case (there were like 20 or so female staffers and lobbyists by time they were done coming forward) before he was persuaded to resign. Your tax dollars at work... and McConnell was chairing that ethics committee, so he knows he doesn't want to go through even a shadow of that again, hence his attempts to encourage Alabama candidate Roy Moore to step aside from his campaign for Sessions' old seat in the Senate.

    I heard Jeff Sessions might resign his Trump admin position as ("Mr. Recused") Attorney General and run to reclaim his old Senate seat. Sounds like a better deal for Alabama than Roy Moore could ever hope to be... and Sessions is at least not a potential sexual harassment problem for the Senate, even if he may have some leftover issues now regarding what he did or didn't remember about the Trump campaign when testifying before Congress.

    As for the sorry star of this thread, Louis CK: good to know he's sorry. To not dodge and to be forthright now is probably the only way for people to handle their situations if likely to be caught out by this rather overdue wave of revelations that yes we still have harassment issues on the job all over the USA.
     
  5. yaxomoxay macrumors 68000

    yaxomoxay

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    #55
    It might be very hard to say no, but at which point it is that individual’s fault?
    Position of power can’t be the only, or even the main factor otherwise they would never be able to have consensual sexual relationships with anyone except a very select group.
     
  6. Scepticalscribe Contributor

    Scepticalscribe

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    #56
    It is not that individuals's fault - in other words, it is not the victim's fault - at all; they shouldn't have been propositioned by an older, more powerful person in the first place when the setting and context is a professional one.
     
  7. yaxomoxay macrumors 68000

    yaxomoxay

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    #57
    Why? Clinton, Kennedy, and others did it. Hefner did it. Many do it without recurring to any type of force.
    While I would not argue that it’s morally despicable, I don’t see age and authority position as meaningful limits for consensual sexual relationships as long as the victim is not forced in any way and there was no insistence.
    Read the letter again. He’s basically defending himself, and he would win in court in my opinion (if those are the facts).
     
  8. Scepticalscribe, Nov 11, 2017
    Last edited: Nov 11, 2017

    Scepticalscribe Contributor

    Scepticalscribe

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    #58
    The fact that others - older, wealthy, powerful, men with a bottomless sense of entitlement and supreme belief that they would neither be called out nor made accountable for their deplorable abusive actions - have done so in the past is neither excuse not justification.

    You cannot really be this obtuse, @yaxomoxay and be so spectacularly ignorant of how power dynamics play when a sexual dimension is introduced to a professional context when and where the power imbalance between the two people involved is so dramatically unequal.

    Would you be quite so cavalier - not to say, myopic - if a young male teenager was propositioned in such a way?

    In any case, there can be no meaningful consent when such a power imbalance exists in a professional setting. None.
     
  9. yaxomoxay macrumors 68000

    yaxomoxay

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    #59
    Thanks for your typical insults. At times it’s very difficult to match your vast culture with your insulting personal attacks.

    At any rate, I am merely asking a question based on what we know (on the specific case I don’t think we have the whole story).
    The question is simple: when is an individual responsible for other people’s free decisions?
    Being a perv is not a crime. Asking for sex is not a crime.

    If they said yes, without any pressure of any kind other than their own perceived feelings about him being “powerful” (and if Luis CK is powerful we truly need to redefine the term), is it really his fault? Does it mean that a CEO can’t have a relationship with anyone who’s not a CEO ?
    Again, I am talking with the assumption that they were not coerced in any way because that’s what we know now.

    At which point can I, a man, take the initiative and kiss a woman? When? I can’t do it because otherwise it might be sexual harassment (fair enough), and I can’t even ask.... even if the other day a famous woman complained that men don’t ask!
    If I ask and she says yes I might even be somewhat responsible for what she thought about me previous to my asking and her perceived reality.
    Power is also very relative; we're talking about a famous comedian that isn’t even that great. Yeah he’s on TV. Big deal.
    Also, I can’t believe that you’re failing to see that with that letter he’s covering his ass big time.
     
  10. citizenzen macrumors 65816

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    #60
    The key word here is consensual.

    When power/authority is involved, it can easily be coercive, and not consensual.

    Seriously, is this concept new to you?
     
  11. Morpheo macrumors 65816

    Morpheo

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    #61
    However I think he's confusing "admired" with "feared". :rolleyes: ....it does take a certain kind of stupid to masturbate in front of a woman who doesn't want any of it. I mean, have some self-respect FFS!!! If anything, the last few weeks just proved once again that it a big bank account doesn't necessarily require a big IQ.
     
  12. yaxomoxay macrumors 68000

    yaxomoxay

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    #62
    No. I am asking at which point.
    You would have to prove that at that precise moment he knew that he was coercing through abuse of his perceived power and not just for his sexual attraction to the lady. In his letter he clearly says that he was unaware about their perception of his character. As a matter of fact, he actually says that he thought it was right because he asked. That’s the very fine print in what he said, and that’s why I don’t think that his is a true apology (and cnn agrees with me on this point) while almost everyone is so glad about his “honest” letter. He is setting up a great legal defense. So I am asking at which point it becomes his fault; I am not saying that there is no fault (there is; if not legally, at least morally). Telling me that he is in a “position of power” or that “there is an imbalance” is not nearly enough to make the claim that he is guilty of anything or of a criminal misconduct, albeit it would possibly be misdemeanor.

    Another example is Bill Gates. He had encounters with one of his employees. The employee later became his wife. He was the richest man on earth, and he was as powerful as you can get in the entire history of humanity. Did he abuse his power to convince her to be with him?
     
  13. acorntoy, Nov 11, 2017
    Last edited: Nov 11, 2017

    acorntoy macrumors 6502a

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    #63
    It was exposed he was an awful person -years- ago. I remember people saying “oh well he’s a male comedian” “that’s how comedy is”. I find it funny how only after all these other people go down they decide to go after him. The public has know about his actions for years. the companies that have been working with him recently are as bad as any company willing to work with him after this time.


    http://defamer.gawker.com/louis-c-k-will-call-you-up-to-talk-about-his-alleged-s-1687820755

    https://www.thedailybeast.com/roseanne-barr-calls-out-louis-ck-ive-heard-so-many-stories
     
  14. MadeTheSwitch macrumors 6502a

    MadeTheSwitch

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    #64
    Not sure exactly what you mean. If you mean just whipping it out without knowing if someone wants to see or not, almost nobody. If you mean just doing it in front of someone consensually that would be a great many people. Ever hear of a circle jerk? Almost every gay guy does it at some point, and a whole lot of heterosexuals do it too, including women. But the way C.K. did it? No....that isn't normal or socially acceptable. That's just visual assult not much different than a flasher with a raincoat.

    Not just Hollywood, but all walks of life. Although Hollywood is a special problem in that as a star you are an independent contractor represented by your agent. You aren't an employee sitting in some cubicle somewhere. So all these opportunities for sexual harassment come up...hotel rooms, location shoots, over night stays, late night parties that get out of hand...all sorts of things that the average worker doesn't encounter. There is no HR person they can go to either. And if it is the director harassing you, they up until now, held a person's career in their hands. The term "casting couch" exist for a reason and it's been around since the beginning days of Hollywood. And women felt they were forced to stay silent. And everyone just kind of joked about it, even women themselves. So it shamefully persisted.

    Now hopefully the fever has broken and a new day is dawning and this will be a thing of the past. Let's hope so.
     
  15. citizenzen, Nov 11, 2017
    Last edited: Nov 11, 2017

    citizenzen macrumors 65816

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    #65
    It becomes his fault when the first act of intimacy was pulling his penis out and masturbating.

    Normally, there are a number of steps that proceed that, which are crucial to establishing consent.
     
  16. yaxomoxay macrumors 68000

    yaxomoxay

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    #66
    Normally, but not necessarily. Especially if they said “yes” and answered in the positive when asked. It’s not the other person’s responsibility to read a mind, or an intention, after a declarative statement following a specific question. Louis CK tricked everyone with his ”apology”.
     
  17. citizenzen macrumors 65816

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    #67
    It would be interesting to see whether the women involved agreed that they said, "yes." It wouldn't surprise me in the least that they stood there in shocked silence and that Louis CK interpreted the lack of a negative response as a positive one.

    Well, this article answers that question. If you're interested, take a few moments to read the accounts of what happened from the women's point of view. Only one said, "yes."
     
  18. yaxomoxay macrumors 68000

    yaxomoxay

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    #68
    I read the article in the NYT this morning. While it certainly depicts a disturbing psychological picture, the key might lie in Rebecca Corry. She declined - she’s not “powerful” or anything - and he apparently didn’t do what he wanted to do (he respected her answer, apparently).
     
  19. citizenzen macrumors 65816

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    #69
    I work for the State of California, and as part of my job I receive training in sexual harassment. California has lost millions in recent years settling sexual harassment claims, and the standards set in these trainings are based on the law and court rulings. And the only kind of consent that protects you in court is clear, unambiguous, sober consent.

    The training also makes quite clear that people react differently in these situations. Some manage to say "no." Some scream and laugh. Some just stand in silence or try to find anything to say.

    If you expect all women to respond in only one way, then you aren't living in reality.
     
  20. yaxomoxay, Nov 11, 2017
    Last edited: Nov 11, 2017

    yaxomoxay macrumors 68000

    yaxomoxay

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    #70
    Unfortunately I also deal with that as my day job. I also know perfectly what you’re saying. However you also know that Luis CK’s defense is quite strong at this moment precisely because criminal intent is not evident, and because of his predisposition (he asked, and when they said no he didn’t act)
     
  21. citizenzen macrumors 65816

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    #71
    I don't know whether his defense is strong or not.

    I'm neither a lawyer or a judge.

    I don't pretend to be an expert in areas I'm not.
     
  22. Zenithal, Nov 11, 2017
    Last edited: Nov 11, 2017

    Zenithal macrumors 68040

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    #72
    The difference between CK and others seems to be him being aware of his behavior. I don't think he's a funny guy (comedy is subjective), but I have seen some of his shows. His self-deprecating humor may point to his struggles with actual sex addiction or other issues he's aware of. I don't buy Spacey's sex addiction BS or Weinstein's.
     
  23. Naaaaak macrumors 6502

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    #73
  24. s2mikey macrumors 68020

    s2mikey

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    #74
    Right? The other thing about these allegations coming out that I have to wonder is if some of these women KNEW exactly what they were doing and were using their "girly influence" to advance their own careers? You know, like "hey, if I let this guy do whatever to me then I’ll get that upcoming movie roll or get that interview or whatever". In other words, they were fine with it at the time because they saw a benefit from doing so.

    Then, years later they realized it did hurt them And it was a bad choice. I dunno. Just something to think about I guess.
     
  25. samcraig macrumors P6

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    #75
    I think if someone asks someone else if they want to see their junk, asks if they can pleasure themselves in front of you and/or actually starts to - they've crossed a line regardless.

    But to your point - context is important. And the one thing some colleagues and I were talking about is that some stories coming forward (not necc about CK) could be just bad flirting. Now clearly there is a line that shouldn't be crossed with language and appropriateness. As an old female friend of mine once said "if he's cute, it's flirting. If he isn't, it's harassment." Now she doesn't really believe that. But clearly sometimes it comes down to context and whether or not one is interested or not.
     

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