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Yeah I dunno. If I had to guess, Apple would need Game Center integration to get that info beyond App Store purchase/download data.


I think this is exactly the warping effect that @thenewperson is concerned about. What most developers are concerned about is will they recoup development and especially support costs, "are people spending money?" And that includes single player games which are still a massive percentage of the market even if multiplayer revenue outstrips it (but again revenue is ultimately the driving force). Further, given the size of the Apple gaming community, a lot of multiplayer games are better off being cross platform, so "active users" being low wouldn't necessarily indicate difficulty in quickly getting through the lobbies on the Mac version.

Also not sure about the anti-cheat stuff a lot of multiplayer games require, isn't that kernel level stuff hence why they don't work with Xover and even building native games is difficult for the Call of Duty and Battlefield-type games? Maybe I'm wrong, I haven't followed any recent developments on that too closely recently. Maybe Apple could build similar functionality, but not sure.
I don't disagree with what you are saying. I am just pointing out that if Apple could show continual sales or folks staying in games longer (and thus increasing the changes of in app purchases) it seems silly not to shop that info around to see if you can get game developers (or publishers) on board.
The word of Nat Brown that Apple didn’t pay for ports is the best we have. Not perfect, but a lot better than anything else I’ve seen. If it’s not good enough for you ok.

If you have evidence of your position feel free to post it.
It wasn't clear to me if Apple approached Capcom or if Capcom approached Apple (same with Hideo Kojima). For example (IMO), Apple should have gone running to Sandfall Interactive to get Expedition 33 released on macOS (assuming they have not). Heck Madfinger Games, should also be a developer that Apple should talk to they made iOS games in the past and are making Gray Zone Warfare which would be a nice multiplayer game for them to get in on the ground floor with.
 
I don't disagree with what you are saying. I am just pointing out that if Apple could show continual sales or folks staying in games longer (and thus increasing the changes of in app purchases) it seems silly not to shop that info around to see if you can get game developers (or publishers) on board.

I don't necessarily disagree with you either. I think maybe the best metric to get developers interested might be reporting total revenue generated by (AAA?) native ports from all the App stores*. After all the primary purpose would be to show developers that there is a sound business decision to porting their games. Of course that's if they've been successful.

If Apple's strategy hasn't been successful ... well ... then I think Apple will have to go the AppleTV route and start getting studios to make Apple-specific titles that are Mac first. The downside is that AppleTV while successfully growing is reportedly (last I checked) losing Apple quite a lot of money and the same would be doubly true for growing Mac's gaming market. Then there's the issue that Apple already has a massively successful iOS gaming market. So Apple executives may not be keen to lose money on a second venture to grow a market they may feel they are already successful in (even if they are arguably extremely different markets despite both being gaming). And finally Apple has never seen fit to release a Mac-level AppleTV console experience (basically would just be a mini but with an enhanced tvOS that comes with a game controller) and Apple's VR goggles are too expensive for widespread adoption (and may not continue if rumors are to be believed). This leaves Apple without a hook beyond Mac gaming being a portal to iOS gaming which may not be enough unless the games made are amazing (one wonders about the world where Halo was released on the Mac - though it has to be said the game was supposedly just an RTS prototype before Microsoft acquired Bungie).

On the flip side, given the general contraction in the developer world, a lot of studios and individuals have been laid off, dissolved, or looking for work. There's a lot of talent and IP out there that's never been more available or cheaper to acquire. Thus, this would be the ideal time for Apple to actually pay for ports (which again so far all available evidence suggests that Apple doesn't beyond some marketing and the kind of developer support they should be offering to everyone anyway) or even better exclusives and long term set up game studios or at least enter into relationships with some like they have in Hollywood and studios A24 in particular if they aren't interested in owning the farm so to speak.

*not broken down by game since that would probably require publisher approval - I don't think the aggregate would, though I'm not sure - but at least including the total list of games in the aggregate so the aggregate's meaning is clear.
 
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You can buy the full game from within the free download of each RE game using IAP tied to your Apple account that then unlocks it for iOS/ipad/macos. If you’re suggesting they make an entirely different version of the game (that doesn’t do those things) just for macOS to sell on steam, then that sounds like a lot more work for no benefit.
They made the existing demos unlock the full version from IAPs. Not really reinventing the wheel there. Apple platforms don't allow demos like Steam does.

The word of Nat Brown that Apple didn’t pay for ports is the best we have. Not perfect, but a lot better than anything else I’ve seen. If it’s not good enough for you ok.

If you have evidence of your position feel free to post it.
From some Youtuber's discord apparently...and again, just because Apple didn't explicitly pay for ports but only offered something like marketing support doesn't mean there was no deal. Maybe Capcom took a deal to port 5 RE games with App Store exclusivity in exchange for marketing support.

Again, the sales of these ports are reportedly very poor.

 
They made the existing demos unlock the full version from IAPs. Not really reinventing the wheel there. Apple platforms don't allow demos like Steam does.


From some Youtuber's discord apparently...and again, just because Apple didn't explicitly pay for ports but only offered something like marketing support doesn't mean there was no deal. Maybe Capcom took a deal to port 5 RE games with App Store exclusivity in exchange for marketing support.

Again, the sales of these ports are reportedly very poor.

So your answer to “do you have any proof?” Is no?

Not sure if you missed it but the person claiming it is someone who worked on games at Apple. Not “some YouTuber”. Fair to say they’re not an authority like “videogameschronicle” though
 
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Again, the sales of these ports are reportedly very poor.
I think too many apple fans over estimate the demand of gaming on the Mac platform. If publishers thought they could make a lot of money they would embrace the platform.

By producing a windows game, the customer base of that game will be windows PCs, Linux PCs (thanks to proton), Steamdeck and Macs running crossover or Geforce Now.

If they produced a mac version, all they would have done is shifted the some of the windows purchases to macos. To put it another way, people the developer/publisher would be adding more cost, overhead, and support complexity for a platform that will not give them any new sales (appreciably).
 
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I don't necessarily disagree with you either. I think maybe the best metric to get developers interested might be reporting total revenue generated by (AAA?) native ports from all the App stores*. After all the primary purpose would be to show developers that there is a sound business decision to porting their games. Of course that's if they've been successful.

If Apple's strategy hasn't been successful ... well ... then I think Apple will have to go the AppleTV route and start getting studios to make Apple-specific titles that are Mac first. The downside is that AppleTV while successfully growing is reportedly (last I checked) losing Apple quite a lot of money and the same would be doubly true for growing Mac's gaming market. Then there's the issue that Apple already has a massively successful iOS gaming market. So Apple executives may not be keen to lose money on a second venture to grow a market they may feel they are already successful in (even if they are arguably extremely different markets despite both being gaming). And finally Apple has never seen fit to release a Mac-level AppleTV console experience (basically would just be a mini but with an enhanced tvOS that comes with a game controller) and Apple's VR goggles are too expensive for widespread adoption (and may not continue if rumors are to be believed). This leaves Apple without a hook beyond Mac gaming being a portal to iOS gaming which may not be enough unless the games made are amazing (one wonders about the world where Halo was released on the Mac - though it has to be said the game was supposedly just an RTS prototype before Microsoft acquired Bungie).

On the flip side, given the general contraction in the developer world, a lot of studios and individuals have been laid off, dissolved, or looking for work. There's a lot of talent and IP out there that's never been more available or cheaper to acquire. Thus, this would be the ideal time for Apple to actually pay for ports (which again so far all available evidence suggests that Apple doesn't beyond some marketing and the kind of developer support they should be offering to everyone anyway) or even better exclusives and long term set up game studios or at least enter into relationships with some like they have in Hollywood and studios A24 in particular if they aren't interested in owning the farm so to speak.

*not broken down by game since that would probably require publisher approval - I don't think the aggregate would, though I'm not sure - but at least including the total list of games in the aggregate so the aggregate's meaning is clear.
Apple becoming a publisher would be a big step forward, even if they don't themselves "own" any developers (which we know they did buy at least 1 iOS game development studio, no clue what they have them working on).
 
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So your answer to “do you have any proof?” Is no?

Not sure if you missed it but the person claiming it is someone who worked on games at Apple. Not “some YouTuber”. Fair to say they’re not an authority like “videogameschronicle” though
Is there somewhere where Nat Brown said it that's not from a YouTuber's discord? You haven't shown that besides saying it's on Andrew Tsai's discord. And again, it could be true from what you wrote, but it also doesn't exclude a deal. Maybe they did do a deal just for marketing support.

There's a ton of places that have reported on the poor sales of the ports.




The fact that sales are poor for multiple entries and they don't seem to be racing to port future games in the series like Requiem to Mac/iOS kinda suggests there was some sort of deal that got them to port them in the first place.
 
Is there somewhere where Nat Brown said it that's not from a YouTuber's discord? You haven't shown that besides saying it's on Andrew Tsai's discord. And again, it could be true from what you wrote, but it also doesn't exclude a deal. Maybe they did do a deal just for marketing support.

There's a ton of places that have reported on the poor sales of the ports.




The fact that sales are poor for multiple entries and they don't seem to be racing to port future games in the series like Requiem to Mac/iOS kinda suggests there was some sort of deal that got them to port them in the first place.
If anything, a lack of ports after poor sales shows the opposite. If they were being paid to port games, sales are less of an issue.

Again, do you have any evidence of deals? No. Sales figures do not tell us anything about a deal.
 
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Is there somewhere where Nat Brown said it that's not from a YouTuber's discord? You haven't shown that besides saying it's on Andrew Tsai's discord. And again, it could be true from what you wrote, but it also doesn't exclude a deal. Maybe they did do a deal just for marketing support.

There's a ton of places that have reported on the poor sales of the ports.




The fact that sales are poor for multiple entries and they don't seem to be racing to port future games in the series like Requiem to Mac/iOS kinda suggests there was some sort of deal that got them to port them in the first place.
Just FYI, that's all the same source, MobileGamer.biz reporting on AppMagic's numbers. Everyone else is simply repeating the original story. AppMagic claim to be able to estimate downloads and sales from sales rankings based on developers presumably signing up with them, sharing their revenue data, and then AppMagic estimating the revenues and downloads of apps that didn't sign up based on those that did. As far as I can tell, there is no verification by third party that their claims for their methodology of being "within 10% of real values" is accurate. Also their analysis was simply for the iPad/iOS ports, not the Mac versions.

However, I am not arguing that the ports were successful (including for the Mac). In fact, Nat Brown has effectively confirmed they were not. I believe the term he used to describe sales of some of these ports was "disaster". (so my first comment is just beware of quoting multiple new outlets that are actually the same source as being the same as quoting multiple sources and as @OptimusGrime already said right above me, it's not really the same argument - Apple would probably be in a much better position if they did pay for ports)

In terms of Nat Brown, he has done interviews since leaving Apple and he repeated the claim that Apple really doesn't invest in the AAA games market - i.e. doesn't deals worth any money (it's a 2hr interview, but there is one on the MacGameCast #57 - @casperes1996 did the interview). Basically Apple just says "huge potential market, we'll help a little!" and tries to get a CDPR or Kojima to port. He even says Apple's gaming marketing help is half-assed and mostly focused on Apple not the games - in other words even the marketing help isn't that much. Nat Brown left Apple in part because of inertia in the company which still doesn't understand gaming internally. He agreed with the general idea that sales are very low on the Apple platform and lack of demand is a if not the major problem. He made it clear he was not citing internal Apple data to make this claim, but talking with his friends in publishing after he left. That's who told him that the sales figures themselves were awful. However, the developers felt that the marketing from the PR push helped them in other ways.

Edit: the one quibble I have with his interview, re-listening to it now, is that he draws a contrast between his pitch for an Apple gaming initiative and what Apple does with AppleTV when largely it's the same idea. Apple just seems to believe it doesn't need to do it for gaming. Basically he says with AppleTV, Apple seems to be of the opinion that they just need to get a few big creators, win awards, make a splash and more creators will come of their own volition. However, Apple is doing that by paying creators lots and lots of money to get exclusive unique content and using that not just to get other creators but also increase subscriber counts. And the people losing money from this are Apple, not the creators. That's basically his pitch for an Apple games initiative as well (he has more details, and obviously there are differences like in AppleTV people pay Apple for subscription revenue while for developers obviously it's commission fee where the developer gets most of the revenue from the customer directly but also takes on the financial risk). It's just Apple seems to be of the opinion that since they have this great hardware, and they do, and a large number of total users that people should just come and they just have to do the bare minimum to convince developers to port because they should want to. So according to Apple these developers should see that "hey Kojima ported, we should too!" without accounting that Kojima didn't make any money.
 
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I don't buy the idea that Apple gives money to devs for porting games. Every time we hear an Apple exec about their relationships with game developers, they say things along the lines "When xyz studio came to us...", and never "When we cam to xyz studios..."
 
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I don't buy the idea that Apple gives money to devs for porting games. Every time we hear an Apple exec about their relationships with game developers, they say things along the lines "When xyz studio came to us...", and never "When we cam to xyz studios..."
Oh it def seems clear they don't approach developers for ports. Otherwise we would see games show up faster on the platform.

I wonder how many development houses use macOS to make their Windows/console games.

edit:spelling
 
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Just FYI, that's all the same source, MobileGamer.biz reporting on AppMagic's numbers. Everyone else is simply repeating the original story. AppMagic claim to be able to estimate downloads and sales from sales rankings based on developers presumably signing up with them, sharing their revenue data, and then AppMagic estimating the revenues and downloads of apps that didn't sign up based on those that did. As far as I can tell, there is no verification by third party that their claims for their methodology of being "within 10% of real values" is accurate. Also their analysis was simply for the iPad/iOS ports, not the Mac versions.

However, I am not arguing that the ports were successful (including for the Mac). In fact, Nat Brown has effectively confirmed they were not. I believe the term he used to describe sales of some of these ports was "disaster". (so my first comment is just beware of quoting multiple new outlets that are actually the same source as being the same as quoting multiple sources and as @OptimusGrime already said right above me, it's not really the same argument - Apple would probably be in a much better position if they did pay for ports)

In terms of Nat Brown, he has done interviews since leaving Apple and he repeated the claim that Apple really doesn't invest in the AAA games market - i.e. doesn't deals worth any money (it's a 2hr interview, but there is one on the MacGameCast #57 - @casperes1996 did the interview). Basically Apple just says "huge potential market, we'll help a little!" and tries to get a CDPR or Kojima to port. He even says Apple's gaming marketing help is half-assed and mostly focused on Apple not the games - in other words even the marketing help isn't that much. Nat Brown left Apple in part because of inertia in the company which still doesn't understand gaming internally. He agreed with the general idea that sales are very low on the Apple platform and lack of demand is a if not the major problem. He made it clear he was not citing internal Apple data to make this claim, but talking with his friends in publishing after he left. That's who told him that the sales figures themselves were awful. However, the developers felt that the marketing from the PR push helped them in other ways.

Edit: the one quibble I have with his interview, re-listening to it now, is that he draws a contrast between his pitch for an Apple gaming initiative and what Apple does with AppleTV when largely it's the same idea. Apple just seems to believe it doesn't need to do it for gaming. Basically he says with AppleTV, Apple seems to be of the opinion that they just need to get a few big creators, win awards, make a splash and more creators will come of their own volition. However, Apple is doing that by paying creators lots and lots of money to get exclusive unique content and using that not just to get other creators but also increase subscriber counts. And the people losing money from this are Apple, not the creators. That's basically his pitch for an Apple games initiative as well (he has more details, and obviously there are differences like in AppleTV people pay Apple for subscription revenue while for developers obviously it's commission fee where the developer gets most of the revenue from the customer directly but also takes on the financial risk). It's just Apple seems to be of the opinion that since they have this great hardware, and they do, and a large number of total users that people should just come and they just have to do the bare minimum to convince developers to port because they should want to. So according to Apple these developers should see that "hey Kojima ported, we should too!" without accounting that Kojima didn't make any money.
Thanks for the reminder of Nat’s interview on MacGameCast. It’s excellent and if you are into this subject, as I assume most here are, it’s worth subscribing to that podcast.
 
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If anything, a lack of ports after poor sales shows the opposite. If they were being paid to port games, sales are less of an issue.

Again, do you have any evidence of deals? No. Sales figures do not tell us anything about a deal.
Indeed. While details are scarce, Nat Brown (ex Game Tech Manager at Apple) has stated that the most Apple offered was marketing support. All of this is checkable from Andrew Tsai’s discord.
How is offering marketing support not some evidence of a deal? If the deal said "port 5 games in exchange for marketing support", then they'd port 5 games, flop or not depending on the consequences of breaking it exceeded the costs of doing it. I think it's more crazy to think Capcom released 5 flops over two years and didn't think to stop after the fifth one. One or two, sure. Maybe three if it was really deep in pipeline. But five???

Maybe Capcom suggested the deal, maybe Apple.
 
How is offering marketing support not some evidence of a deal? If the deal said "port 5 games in exchange for marketing support", then they'd port 5 games, flop or not depending on the consequences of breaking it exceeded the costs of doing it. I think it's more crazy to think Capcom released 5 flops over two years and didn't think to stop after the fifth one. One or two, sure. Maybe three if it was really deep in pipeline. But five???

Maybe Capcom suggested the deal, maybe Apple.
Mmmkay.
 
How is offering marketing support not some evidence of a deal? If the deal said "port 5 games in exchange for marketing support", then they'd port 5 games, flop or not depending on the consequences of breaking it exceeded the costs of doing it. I think it's more crazy to think Capcom released 5 flops over two years and didn't think to stop after the fifth one. One or two, sure. Maybe three if it was really deep in pipeline. But five???

Maybe Capcom suggested the deal, maybe Apple.
Because the marketing support Apple gave is minuscule compared to the cost of paying for 5 major ports - think less Apple paying Capcom money or massive in-kind advertising program and more, Apple including a few seconds of Capcom games in its own advertising for its own products that it shows at its own trade show to primarily highlight Apple products. Yes that's a "deal", but it's not like what you seem to be hyper fixated on.

Again, this isn't to suggest that the releases themselves were financially successful and that's why Capcom keeps doing them, but rather that Capcom has ancillary reasons for doing it. Nat Brown goes into it - there are certain games that have been longstanding Mac franchises that almost certainly do make money and whose studios have consistently released Mac versions day 1 for decades like Civilization. Those are the rarity, but in order to develop a similar brand takes time and more importantly practice, especially for some studios concerned about Windows, its direction, and the sheer amount of power it wields in the PC gaming space. Some studios are thus porting to the Mac (and Linux/SteamOS) as a way of hedging their bets against Microsoft and Windows and even if these ports aren't successful they want to develop the in-house capability to do the ports (especially if they use an in-house engine rather than an off-the-shelf one where the porting, though not supporting, costs will be lower). Then there's the PR. Kojima for instance used the Mac port of Death Stranding to generate pre-publicity for Death Stranding 2 which was announced shortly after the Mac port of the original.

This is not to suggest that this is a sustainable business model for Apple gaming. It isn't. Apple unfortunately doesn't seem to recognize that it needs to do anything other than the bare minimum and that if in fact Apple pursued this as strongly as it did other endeavors it actually has an opportunity in this space. But Apple as an organization just isn't set up to do that. That combination of there being an opportunity for success but internal corporate myopia is why Nat Brown described himself as pessimistic but not fatalistic about Mac gaming.
 
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