Male circumcision of minors for religious reasons a crime in Germany (for now)

Discussion in 'Politics, Religion, Social Issues' started by AhmedFaisal, Jun 26, 2012.

  1. AhmedFaisal, Jun 26, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 26, 2012

    AhmedFaisal Guest

    #1
    Looks like Germany maybe be on it's way to banning male circumcision of minors for religious motives. According to the state high court of Cologne, male circumcision of a minor for other than medical reasons constitutes felony battery even if consent was given by the parents of the minor. Of course we can expect this to be forwarded to the German Supreme Court given that religious organizations such as the german jewish central council are in uproar about this ruling. This puts male circumcision of minors on the same level as female circumcision which already constitutes felony battery in Germany.

    http://www.spiegel.de/panorama/just...ungen-ist-laut-gericht-strafbar-a-841084.html
     
  2. niuniu macrumors 68020

    niuniu

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    #2
    Can see this going the whole way to the ECHR. About time we had an interesting case to follow, with both sides having a really strong case.
     
  3. leekohler macrumors G5

    leekohler

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    #3
    Good. That's a terrible thing to do to a child. Hopefully, it stays illegal.
     
  4. AhmedFaisal, Jun 26, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 26, 2012

    AhmedFaisal thread starter Guest

    #4
    Don't know about that. Religious freedom is not as sacrosanct in Europe as it is in the US. The right to self determination of minors trumps a lot of things even religious freedom. The initiation of minors into churches and such hasn't been affected yet as so far the courts have ruled that as a reversible act it's acceptable but this thing is pretty much irreversible so I don't see how they can let it slide.

    If you look at the current legal environment for many other topics such as anonymous adoptions, anonymous birth or where biological fathers of illegitimate children refuse to interact with them or mothers refuse to disclose biological fathers, the law always came down on the side of the right to self determination of the child..... I fail to see how this could be different.
     
  5. MyDesktopBroke macrumors 6502

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    #5
    I still don't understand how this is still acceptable. I'm cut and don't mind, but it's still something I'd have liked to decide for myself.
     
  6. niuniu macrumors 68020

    niuniu

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    #6
    In recent years equal rights and freedoms have to my knowledge always won when they clashed with the freedom to practise religion.

    To my great pleasure.

    But they have Article 18 and the 'Church' has a seemingly infinite amount of cash to keep trying to enforce it. They can also argue that circumcision has medical benefits. They can certainly bring a lot of experts in give evidence in favour of it and try to keep the practice alive.

    Personally I hate it. You're cutting up children. (Take note Americanistan :D)
     
  7. AhmedFaisal thread starter Guest

    #7
    They can argue it and bring experts but there is not a single large cohort study that supports it, particularly in Western Europe. Working for a Pharma company where we actually argue based on clinical evidence and even that gets thrown out half the time I'd be shocked.
     
  8. .Andy macrumors 68030

    .Andy

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    #8
    If my wife can't rub the bloodied foreskin of our child hacked off with a flint on my feet how on earth are we supposed to appease god?
     
  9. skunk macrumors G4

    skunk

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    #9
    Have you tried cookies?
     
  10. AhmedFaisal thread starter Guest

    #10
    Ask your local rabbi or imam for a continuance until your little tyke is 18 and hope that in the interceding time you have brainwashed him enough to let you do it when he is of legal age to make that decision on his own.
     
  11. Big-TDI-Guy macrumors 68030

    Big-TDI-Guy

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    #11
    I'm not sure modifying an ant eater to look like a rocket is on the same level as female circumcision.

    At least, for males, the feel-good part is left intact, the female variant is not, that seems a bit more harsh to me.

    Or have I been lied to, and that little piece of me buried in a landfill for over 30 years was really that awesome?
     
  12. skunk macrumors G4

    skunk

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    #12
    You will never know.
     
  13. Fazzy macrumors 6502

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    #13
    Hmm..maybe you have.

    ITS A CONSPIRICY!! :eek:
     
  14. Big-TDI-Guy macrumors 68030

    Big-TDI-Guy

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    #14
    Anyone have a backhoe I can borrow for a few days? It might still be fresh...
     
  15. AP_piano295 macrumors 65816

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    #15
    Yes you have been lied to.

    Circumcision is associated with a great deal of sensation loss.
     
  16. Big-TDI-Guy macrumors 68030

    Big-TDI-Guy

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    #16
    You know what, then GOOD. Being a 2-pump chump is bad enough!
     
  17. leekohler macrumors G5

    leekohler

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    #17
    Umm...are you really sure you want to share that on the net? ;)
     
  18. AP_piano295 macrumors 65816

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    #18
    I suggest regular masturbation.
     
  19. AhmedFaisal thread starter Guest

    #19
    I think that's subjective. I was circumcised at 22 and have not noticed any discernible difference. That being said, it is a permanent alteration of the body without a valid medical reason so it should be left to the child to decide when it is old enough to make that decision (i.e. 18). For that matter I would also ban minors from getting piercings (including earrings) and tattoos or any plastic surgery unless we are talking about a serious deformity such as a visibly crooked nose or major blemish on visible body parts.
     
  20. fox10078 macrumors 6502

    fox10078

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    #20
    From the research I found it's a mixed bag. Some have seen sensation improvement while some have found a loss. But majority notice no difference.
     
  21. NickZac macrumors 68000

    NickZac

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    #21
    Agreed. This will be interesting to see how it plays out, as this could easily set a precedent for other nations.
     
  22. Heilage macrumors 68030

    Heilage

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    #22
    **** religious freedom. Don't cut in your kids. EOD.
     
  23. .Andy macrumors 68030

    .Andy

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    #23
    I was just searching the web for foreskin research mum. The images were purely incidental.
     
  24. chrono1081 macrumors 604

    chrono1081

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    #24
    I completely disagree for doing it for religious reasons (it even says somewhere in the Bible that circumcision isn't necessary and its after the Old Testament) but that being said I'm glad it was done to me.

    I had one friend who had to get it done when he was 16 for medical reasons and another friend who had to get it done at 27 :eek: for medical reasons as well! I can't imagine having to get it done at a later age.
     
  25. Renzatic Suspended

    Renzatic

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    #25
    While I'll agree that circumcision is about useless for all but the most extreme of cases, I think there's whole tons of hyperbole on the subject. From both sides of the fence.

    Yeah, there's some sensation loss. Some being the key word here, and you are losing some of your skin. But no, it can't be compared directly to female circumcision. It's more like labia shaving, which exposes the more sensitive parts rather than removing it.

    Also +1 for me getting to use the word "labia" on a Mac forum. :D
     

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