Man acting 'irrationally' while openly carrying

rdowns

macrumors Penryn
Original poster
Jul 11, 2003
27,345
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Compare and contrast as to how this was handled to the recent thread on the steak knife wielding guy. Were this guy black, he'd be dead.




A man who was acting strangely while openly carrying a rifle on the sidewalk prompted a large police response in Kalamazoo Sunday afternoon.

Kalamazoo Public Safety Lt. Stacey Geik said officers were called to Cork Street Coin Laundry, 823 E. Cork St., at 4:05 p.m. on a report of a man who appeared to be intoxicated openly carrying a rifle outside of the laundromat and across the street at an Auto Zone.

Geik said police believed the man was an open carry advocate who was attempting to demonstrate his Second Amendment rights, but the possibility of the man being intoxicated prompted an officer to be dispatched to the scene to try to speak with the man.

"(The officer) asked the guy if he could talk to him and the guy went into an (expletive)-laden tirade, 'the revolution's coming, I don't have to talk to you, etcetera, etcetera,'" Geik said.

Geik said that while the man wasn't brandishing the rifle, he noted that the gun did not have a strap, which caused the man to hold the weapon in both hands and continue to "fidget" with it.
http://www.mlive.com/news/kalamazoo/index.ssf/2014/05/man_acting_irrationally_while.html#incart_2box
 

rdowns

macrumors Penryn
Original poster
Jul 11, 2003
27,345
12,408
Guy with the steak knife was yelling "shoot me" while advancing towards the cops . Hope this drunk at least ended up in jail

That's the difference you see? The police rolled up on the guy with the steak knife and jumped out of their cars and drew guns further escalating the situation.

Notice how the police roll up, see the man with a gun and back the car away so as to not further escalate. Notice they asked him nicely to put the gun down and proceeded to talk to him for over half an hour.
 

zioxide

macrumors 603
Dec 11, 2006
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How does that detail matter?

If he demands to be shot, does it make it any more or less wrong to shoot him?
If anything, it makes it more wrong as anyone who would say that is clearly ill.


Good to see cops doing their job of DIFFUSING a situation instead of escalating it for once. Talking down a drunk man with a gun takes balls. Shooting dead a mentally-ill man with a steak knife without any attempt whatsoever to diffuse the situation is cowardly.
 

jkcerda

macrumors 6502a
Jun 10, 2013
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Criminal Mexi Midget
How does that detail matter?

If he demands to be shot, does it make it any more or less wrong to shoot him?
Matters because he was well within the 21 foot area.

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That's the difference you see? The police rolled up on the guy with the steak knife and jumped out of their cars and drew guns further escalating the situation.

Notice how the police roll up, see the man with a gun and back the car away so as to not further escalate. Notice they asked him nicely to put the gun down and proceeded to talk to him for over half an hour.
I see the difference.
 

citizenzen

macrumors 65816
Mar 22, 2010
1,433
11,628
If anything, it makes it more wrong as anyone who would say that is clearly ill. ...
I was thinking along the same line.

And just because a person advances also doesn't mean the officers have to shoot, so long as they have a viable option to back away and maintain a safe distance.

It would seem to me that restraint and patience should be exercised, so long as no immediate threat to life exists.

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Matters because he was well within the 21 foot area.
I'm not familiar with "the 21 foot area". Is this some standard?

Were the cops capable of backing up and making it at least 22 feet?
 

Gutwrench

Contributor
Jan 2, 2011
3,900
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If anything, it makes it more wrong as anyone who would say that is clearly ill.


Good to see cops doing their job of DIFFUSING a situation instead of escalating it for once. Talking down a drunk man with a gun takes balls. Shooting dead a mentally-ill man with a steak knife without any attempt whatsoever to diffuse the situation is cowardly.
I agree but you've missed the point. Rdowns wants the narrative on race. Please stay on topic.
 

citizenzen

macrumors 65816
Mar 22, 2010
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I agree but you've missed the point. Rdowns wants the narrative on race. Please stay on topic.
What is your feeling to the role that race plays into this?

IMO, any single incident is hard to pin down to race, but taken together I think it's pretty clear that race plays a part in police response and reaction.
 

jkcerda

macrumors 6502a
Jun 10, 2013
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Criminal Mexi Midget
I was thinking along the same line.

And just because a person advances also doesn't mean the officers have to shoot, so long as they have a viable option to back away and maintain a safe distance.

It would seem to me that restraint and patience should be exercised, so long as no immediate threat to life exists.

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I'm not familiar with "the 21 foot area". Is this some standard?

Were the cops capable of backing up and making it at least 22 feet?
Back up? No. BUT he might have made it back inside the SUV

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What is your feeling to the role that race plays into this?

IMO, any single incident is hard to pin down to race, but taken together I think it's pretty clear that race plays a part in police response and reaction.
Completely agree on this
 

zioxide

macrumors 603
Dec 11, 2006
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I agree but you've missed the point. Rdowns wants the narrative on race. Please stay on topic.
Well, he's partly right. No matter how much people want to stick their heads in the sand or complain about people "playing the race card" (people mostly complain about that because they don't like getting called out on their racism), race is definitely still an issue and definitely plays a factor.

Mental health does as well, though. This country has a LOOOOOOONG way to go when it comes to both race and mental health issues.
 

jkcerda

macrumors 6502a
Jun 10, 2013
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Well, he's partly right. No matter how much people want to stick their heads in the sand or complain about people "playing the race card" (people mostly complain about that because they don't like getting called out on their racism), race is definitely still an issue and definitely plays a factor.

Mental health does as well, though. This country has a LOOOOOOONG way to go when it comes to both race and mental health issues.
Kelly Thomas comes to mind. Those cops should been fried over that killing
 

Gutwrench

Contributor
Jan 2, 2011
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What is your feeling to the role that race plays into this?

IMO, any single incident is hard to pin down to race, but taken together I think it's pretty clear that race plays a part in police response and reaction.
Having very intimate personal experiences I honestly don't know what role, if any, it plays. It's a complicated subject that's for sure.

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I only watched a small fraction of the Myth Busters video but the U.S. cops I know of all carry with one in the chamber so no need to rack a round. It's too time consuming.
 

citizenzen

macrumors 65816
Mar 22, 2010
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Having very intimate personal experiences I honestly don't know what role, if any, it plays. It's a complicated subject that's for sure.
I can settle for complicated.

I'm sure in many ways, it is.

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I only watched a small fraction of the Myth Busters video but the U.S. cops I know of all carry with one in the chamber so no need to rack a round. It's too time consuming.
And I'm assuming the cops already have their guns drawn.
 

Gutwrench

Contributor
Jan 2, 2011
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I can settle for complicated.

I'm sure in many ways, it is.

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And I'm assuming the cops already have their guns drawn.
Not always, of course, it depends on the situation. People pull weapons suddenly, they can grab them from a counter, from a boot etc. The street can get real serious, real fast. Cops try to maintain the position of advantage but they can't eliminate all risk. The bad guy intent on attacking knows if he will attack and choses the timing. Cops don't have crystal balls.
 

Gutwrench

Contributor
Jan 2, 2011
3,900
9,017
What is your feeling to the role that race plays into this?

IMO, any single incident is hard to pin down to race, but taken together I think it's pretty clear that race plays a part in police response and reaction.
And I should have added that I concede race may well play a role in some cases. I just never saw it being the case but I can't read the cop's mind either. I knew most of the guys around me. Some were better at conflict resolution than others. In LE the best weapon a cop has is his/her ability to communicate. You can't fight every person on every call. You'll never survive.

I didn't like some cops. I didn't like working with them and I wouldn't socialize with them ever.
 

citizenzen

macrumors 65816
Mar 22, 2010
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Yes they did. Still many attackers don't go down after being shot. Really depends on where they are hit
So you advocate shooting at a distance of 21 feet or less, because theoretically a person running at full speed could reach you before you unholster a gun, take it off safety, aim and fire it ... despite the fact that the cop had his gun unholstered, off safety and aimed at the knife-wielder?

I am once again astounded by your logic.
 

jkcerda

macrumors 6502a
Jun 10, 2013
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So you advocate shooting at a distance of 21 feet or less, because theoretically a person running at full speed could reach you before you unholster a gun, take it off safety, aim and fire it ... despite the fact that the cop had his gun unholstered, off safety and aimed at the knife-wielder?

I am once again astounded by your logic.
You are reading what you want in my simple statement , I am not "advocating" shooting ANYONE , pretty easy to quarter back from the comfort of a chair & make statements as to what "else" could have been done. Watch till the end of the video please

Graphic video warning: http://youtu.be/ul8DhaZkDS0

I took a bit of martial arts , correct training teaches you to run away & avoid all confrontations. You run away/evade/find help until you can't do so. THEN & only then you do what ever you need to do. Cops in the steak knife shooting screwed up a bit in the way they approached the lunatic. Lunatic wanted a suicide by cop & was granted his wish. Cops are not well trained when it comes to dealing with mentally ill people. Just on case your logic keeps failing you, I am not advocating shooting anyone. As you stated before you didn't know about the 21 foot rule & I imagine you have never been in any sort of danger, congratulations for having such safety record & living a nice life, not everyone is in that position . Pointing out dangers sighing certain ranges does not mean "shoot". It means you better be aware of what can happen & what skills if any you might possess. The cop in the video thought he could deal with criminal , handle Your situation as YOU see fit. Here is another rule you might not know. Every bullet has a lawyer attached to it. Consider taking a class on CCW. You might learn a few things.
 
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alphaod

macrumors Core
Feb 9, 2008
22,046
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NYC
Don't forget different police forces also have different training and experiences. Some may be very racial indifferent so more likely to diffuse the situation where others are used to being shot at, so may be more likely open fire.
 

jkcerda

macrumors 6502a
Jun 10, 2013
682
38,977
Criminal Mexi Midget
Just a bit.

Just a teensy, little bit.
Enough that they ended. Up having to accommodate the wishes of the lunatic , don't want to get shot? Don't ask the cops to do so while holding a knife. Play stupid games / win stupid prizes. Cop above in the video decided to play stupid games , he won his stupid prize