Maryville, Missouri Rape Situation

Discussion in 'Politics, Religion, Social Issues' started by bmt134, Oct 16, 2013.

  1. bmt134 macrumors 6502

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    #1
    http://www.kansascity.com/2013/10/14/4553348/justice-not-served-in-maryville.html



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    More in depth-article and first to report here:
    http://www.kansascity.com/2013/10/12/4549775/nightmare-in-maryville-teens-sexual.html
     
  2. quagmire macrumors 603

    quagmire

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    #2
    Oh look another Steubenville, Ohio situation. Small town that only survives due to high school sports. :rolleyes:
     
  3. likemyorbs macrumors 68000

    likemyorbs

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    #3
    It's surreal to me that things like this even happen.
     
  4. rdowns macrumors Penryn

    rdowns

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    #4
    I'm at a loss for words. Sadly, this happens way too frequently to young women, especially in small towns like this. Thankfully, we now have the Internet which doesn't allow small fiefdoms to cover up **** like this.

    The Lt. Gov. has now stepped in.


    http://themissouritorch.com/2013/10/15/breaking-lt-gov-kinder-calls-grand-jury-daisy-coleman-case/
     
  5. Andeavor macrumors 6502

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    #5
    I think I saw a film like this once.

    Personal responsibility seems a foreign world these days.
     
  6. chrono1081 macrumors 604

    chrono1081

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    #6
    This article is just sad. I grew up in an area full of ridiculous sports worship (Near State College PA, where Penn State let one of their coaching staff molest little boys in the name of football) and its ridiculous how poisonous the sports mentality can be.

    Sadly until people realize sports is nothing but a silly game sports worship and the covering up of any wrongdoing by athletes will continue.

    When I was in high school a teacher got fired for not courtesy passing failing football players. I was disgusted yet the case in the article is a million times worse.

    If you take sports out of the equation peoples minds change.
     
  7. ucfgrad93 macrumors P6

    ucfgrad93

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  8. MyMac1976 macrumors 6502

    MyMac1976

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    #9
    This is why:

    "The case has brought international attention to the small northwest Missouri town of Maryville"

    Pathetic
     
  9. Renzatic Suspended

    Renzatic

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    #10
    This is a loaded topic if there ever was one.

    My opinion is that it all depends on degrees, intentions, and situations. My opinion is that if two consenting adults go out to a bar, get a little tipsy, and go home to have sex with each other, that's not rape. Being tipsy lowers your inhibitions, sure. But it suddenly doesn't make a woman completely unable to make decisions for herself.

    Of course there's always an if, an and, or a but in there, but in a general bog standard bar situation, aka two people going out to some place with the intentions of meeting someone to get into bed with, and using some alcohol to make that end result more likely to happen, then no. It's not rape.

    Now one party being blackout drunk while another is only tipsy is an entirely different story. If she's slurring her speech to the point you can barely understand her, and it takes her 5 minutes of hard thinking before she remembers where she lives, then yeah, you are taking advantage of her. I would call that rape in all but the most extenuating of circumstances.

    But what about a situation where both parties are blackout drunk? That one's hard to call for me, cuz you've basically got two people who were stupid enough to go out in public and drink themselves into a near stupor. Who's fault would it be in that situation? Neither one of them are acting in any sane, rational way, and aren't in a state of mind to make decisions for themselves. Since I don't believe in a default responsibility when it comes to sex, I'm gonna say this one isn't rape.

    Anyway, I'd say more, but I've got this great looking grilled hamburger sitting right in front of me, so I'll cut this short cuz I wanna eat it.
     
  10. benthewraith macrumors 68040

    benthewraith

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    #11
    But if they get that drunk, is it even physically possible for two individuals to have sex?
     
  11. Renzatic Suspended

    Renzatic

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    #12
    Yeah, I'd say it's possible. It wouldn't be what anyone in their right mind would call hot sex, and it'll probably end up with someone throwing up in someone else's hair before passing out, but...

    ...it can be done.

    edit: That burger I just ate had some chow chow on it. I'm suddenly finding myself wishing I didn't mention the bit about the hair now.
     
  12. splitpea macrumors 6502a

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    #13
    IMO, if you're given an opportunity to decline the sex and a "no" is actually honored, it's not rape, regardless of anyone's level of sobriety.

    If no opportunity is given to decline, or if a refusal is not honored, it is rape, regardless of anyone's level of sobriety.

    If you get absurdly drunk and explicitly accept sex with someone you wouldn't have hooked up with while sober, well, that's your own fault and it's not rape. If you get too drunk to notice/care/hold yourself back when someone tells you they don't want sex, well, that's also your own fault and you're guilty of rape (does murder become not murder because you were too drunk to pay attention to what you were doing? What about theft?)

    No ambiguity there.

    The real problem comes when in the morning one or both parties discover they've blacked out and can't remember what happened the night before or whether the sex was consensual, and there's no other record (calls or texts to friends, cellphone pics, whatever).

    In that case, it's unreasonable to assume or prosecute for rape unless there's clear physical evidence of forcible sex (which, yes, can also be ambiguous with rough sex).

    As a woman, I hope to never, ever put myself in that sort of position, because I can imagine it would be incredibly frightening -- even if it really were consensual, it'd be difficult to accept and would make me feel vulnerable.

    That said, I get the impression from internet comments that a lot of men assume that a lot of women will try to take advantage of a man by claiming rape after clearly consensual sex -- and I think that's either mistaken or disingenuous.

    Something like one six adult American women has been the victim of an attempted rape (if not a completed rape). That's right. Chances are someone you know is a rape victim. Chances are that multiple women you know are. A sixth of all women.

    In our society, a woman draws a lot of flack for claiming she's been raped; it's a potentially very humiliating and painfully personal thing to bring out into the open. A lot of rape victims never try to prosecute as a result -- I've read somewhere (can't remember where at the moment) that they grossly outnumber the number of false claims of rape by an order of magnitude.
     
  13. skunk macrumors G4

    skunk

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    #14
    Is this from The Onion?
     
  14. quagmire macrumors 603

    quagmire

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    #15
    If the guy is sober then he should know better. If both are absurdly drunk, there is no rape. But, if we're dealing with a person with his judgement intact taking advantage of a woman whose judgement has been compromised, it's rape, IMHO.
     
  15. MyMac1976 macrumors 6502

    MyMac1976

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    #16
    She was 14 if a tab a went into her slot b someones in trouble no matter the alcohol consumed.
     
  16. skunk macrumors G4

    skunk

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  17. chown33 macrumors 604

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    #18
    The original post involves two girls, ages 13 and 14:
    Two girls, ages 13 and 14, are in a hospital with signs of having been sexually assaulted. ...
    In Missouri, the age of consent is 17:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ages_of_consent_in_North_America#Missouri

    AFAIK, every US state has a legal drinking age of 21. So every person involved, both perpetrators and victims, was illegally drinking.

    I have no idea how these facts, presented in the first post, have anything to do with consenting adults (i.e. above the age of 17) engaging in sec after they legally consume intoxicating amounts of alcohol (implying they're at least the age of 21). None of that is relevant to the original purpose of this thread.

    You may be responding to ERIC273's off-topic post:
    But he's clearly uninformed (the girl isn't old enough to give consent), or hasn't bothered to read the first post, or is simply being inflammatory with his off-topic posts.
     
  18. splitpea, Oct 17, 2013
    Last edited: Oct 17, 2013

    splitpea macrumors 6502a

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    #19
    I think that's a grey area. Taking advantage of someone who has lowered inhibitions but is still capable of understanding what the other person is attempting to do and consents to it is immoral, unethical, and incredibly sleazy, but not rape. Depending on the actual level of inebriation we're discussing, I feel very strongly that it should not be socially acceptable, but it's not legally actionable either.

    Maybe we're saying the same thing, but interpreting "compromised judgement" differently. Sex with someone who's too drunk to be capable of knowing what you're trying to do or trying to refuse it -- absolutely, that's rape.

    Basically I'm saying that sex requires consent and that there's a difference between "without your consent" and "with your consent but against what would be your better judgement if you were thinking entirely clearly".

    I think in the latter case you're responsible for putting yourself in a position where your judgement is clouded. I've done plenty of things when drunk that I've regretted the next day, but I've never blamed anyone else for anything I've done in that state of my own choice. But in the former case, the aggressor should be held responsible for not seeking consent.

    EDITED TO ADD:

    chown33, you're right, this discussion is partly in reaction to ERIC273's comments, but I happen to think the same judgements largely apply to teens who have been drinking -- with some additional caveats about peer pressure and distorted power structures in high school social circles, and that parents have a responsibility to discipline teens who have engaged in behavior that's unethical but not illegal.

    Either way, this particular situation is absurd. The glorification of teen athletes, their entitled behavior, adults who make excuses for them, condonement of abuse and rape, and persecution of victims... I don't even know where to start about how wrong it is.
     
  19. ERIC273 macrumors 6502

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    #20
    No. It seriously pisses me off that many girls think that they can accuse people of rape because their intoxicated selves consented to sexual relations.
    It's your decision to get drunk, you're responsible for the decisions you make while intoxicated, if you decide to offer yourself to a guy during that time, you have no right to say "but I was drunk" when you find out you had sex, and claim to have been raped. Thats like if I murder someone, and than try saying "but I was drunk" to be acquitted of the charges.

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    No. I was just making vaguely relevant posts, which pertain more to the whole crime (rape) than the case in the OP specifically.

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    Would that not all be speculation? How does one know decipher whether a man was specifically targeting a pre-intoxicated person, with prior knowledge of their likelyhood to escalate(sex), or if they just are attracted to that drunk person, and had no consideration of their level of intoxication.
     
  20. MyMac1976 macrumors 6502

    MyMac1976

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    #21


    You just compared being sexually assulted to killing someone in a thread about a rape case of a 14 year old girl and her 13 year old friend.
     
  21. Renzatic Suspended

    Renzatic

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    #22
    There's a HUGE difference between you walking into a bar fresh and sober and picking up a woman who's got a good buzz on, and "yeah, she could barely hold her head up, and was pretty much pissing herself when they left". The former is perfectly alright to me. She's got about 97.35% of her mental faculties available to her. The latter? Even if it isn't rape, you're a scumbag for doing it.

    It should at the very least be common courtesy not to sleep with a woman if she doesn't know what she's getting into.
     
  22. ERIC273 macrumors 6502

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    #23
    It was an offtopic opinion stemming off my less offtopic opinion of pedofiles often justify themselves with obscure religious affiliations which do not condemn such abominable behaviors.

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    If she's sober enough to clearly express interest in me, without seeming out of touch with the situation, than you're fine.

    I of course agree with you, but my point was girls who just regret their saying yes will lie and say they were raped once sober.
     
  23. splitpea macrumors 6502a

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    #24
    Expressing interest in someone != consenting to sex.
     
  24. ucfgrad93 macrumors P6

    ucfgrad93

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    #25
    Wow, you just don't give up spewing this crap do you?:rolleyes: Please provide a source that "pedofiles":rolleyes: often use religion to justify their actions.
     

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