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Discussion in 'Politics, Religion, Social Issues' started by yaxomoxay, Dec 4, 2017.
This case will have many unintended consequences either way.
I'd have an issue. I don't think it should be a problem to put a darn Christmas tree on a cake. Or if Christian, to put a menorah on a cake. You are just drawing something out of icing. It doesn't mean you agree with it or are a practicing member of the other religion. If you work out of your home or something I take less issue. But when you open a storefront to the public, I think you shouldn't be picking and chosing who you will bake a certain thing for. The notion that the baker is still willing to sell cookies is silly. That's like saying that a florist won't making a wedding bouquet for your wedding, but will sell you a "deepest condolences " one to you. As if that is what you would want displayed at your wedding.
In other words, if you don't like gay marriages, then don't have one of your own. But if you have a public business, then you should probably serve everyone equally and not project your religious beliefs onto others.
What I meant was that the marriage is legal and so is the cake.
Therefore, make it. Or, don't make wedding cakes for sale to the general public.
Making the cake for a wedding celebration does not mean you have to get in the bedroom and ensure the couple's marriage (gay or otherwise) is consummated. It's a cake. You are not standing up in church vouching for the sanctity of the couple's marriage. You're selling a wedding cake. What the heck do you know about most of your customers anyway? Who made you the arbiter of their lifestyle? You are a shopkeeper and baker. They are customers buying a product.
Adherents to other religions manage workarounds for all this stuff and where they can't, they don't compete to sell the product in question or don't compete to provide the service in question. It's not that complicated.
Muslim and Jews and for that matter assorted Christian sects do manage to separate what is Caesar's and what is their interpretation of what it means to serve their God. A Muslim shopkeeper might have a clerk ring up all beer sales. He himself doesn't sell beer to anyone. The store, however, sells beer to anyone who can produce ID where proof of age is at issue, and the money for the product. The shopkeeper donates profit from the beer sales to charity as part of his religious obligation.
Do we think Allah rolls eyes and says the workaround is a sin? Who the heck knows. The shopkeeper believes he has rendered unto Caesar what is Caesar's without departing the spirit of the laws of his faith. Customer is happy, shopkeeper happy, Allah remains unknowable which seems right for a Deity.
These bakers can subcontract a cake-bake or have a helper assist the customer with the design and the baking, or just do it and donate the profits. In short, do whatever they need to do to separate themselves in their minds from providing a service they happen to believe would compromise their personal relationship to their Deity.
By word of mouth if they don't do some workaround like that with requests for cakes for a gay marriage celebration, then it gets around that they are biased against gays. Well more Americans are not biased against gay marriage than are now, so how good is that for business. Would I want to have my wedding cake baked by a guy who dissed my gay friends before their wedding last summer? Don't think so.
This kind of refusal seems stupid to me business-wise, and extremely unloving Christian-wise. But as I say, it will be interesting to see if this Supreme Court views it as legal, and why.
Interesting. Gives me an idea. This is how the situation could have been resolved:
He could have said "okay, we'll bake the cake for you guys, but you should know that we donate all profits to anti-gay causes and organizations. You still want to do it?" The guys probably would have left on their own, wouldn't feel humiliated, and life would have gone on fine for everyone.
If this is so simple and stupid, why do people make such a big deal out of Merry Christmas? I don’t think it’s as simple as “Darn Christmas tree”. People feel very strongly about religious things, both for and against. You may not, but you do feel very strongly about anything that seems anti-gay and rightfully so. I for one do feel very strongly about my religious beliefs, but not making a Christmas cake would not offend me. I will simply take my business else where, not very hard. I am sure there are tons of bakery’s that would love to have this couples business in Colorado.
That's stupid too. There is no war on Christmas. Not everyone has to use a particular phrase that Christains want people to use. Happy Holidays is fine for others to say. Merry Christmas is also fine to say. I use both myself.
But what if there wasn't?
To you it is, but it’s also not important to you. How do you think Starbucks feels about it? Just because you say both doesn’t mean that’s how everyone feels. I like how you brush the “war on Christmas” off as nothing but made up. It’s not important to you, so it must not matter.
That’s not the case, so are we making up hypotheticals now? I can make up plenty of those in the other direction if you would like.
Because it is made up. It's silly. It's faux outrage. You can say Merry Christmas all you want. No one is stopping you.
Why can't you just answer the question? Oh...does it undermine your argument?
Nope that is not true at all. If I work for a company that does not suppose that, I can’t .
Nope not all, but we can run through hypotheticals all night long. With if that Jewish Baker didn’t want to make me a cake, and no one in Ga wanted to?
Exactly. There is no war against Christmas. People say Merry Christmas all the time and no one starts a fricken war over it. Some people I've said it to have occasionally said stuff like "I don't celebrate Christmas but I hope your holidays are good too"... and I was ok with that and if they offered me a clue then I wished that they enjoy a more specific holiday.
Honestly this country has its head up its behind sometimes about just about anything. To be inclusive does not mean to be exclusive. What is the point of trying to make it seem otherwise? It has not become illegal to wish someone Merry Christmas. It might offend some people but so what. Aren't we post-PC these days? So hard to keep up with the last 15 minutes of the internet's conclusions about everything.
But all those remarks belong back in the Starbucks thread, I guess.
On topic here: there's no war against Christians in the US either, not even against Christians who don't want to make a cake that will help guests at a wedding reception celebrate a gay couple's marriage. It's just a law that if you want to serve the public, serve the public already.
Pending a Supreme Court decision to the contrary, it's not ok to discriminate against gays by refusing to make a gay couple's wedding cake. So make the darn cake and create a workaround for your spiritual angst, that would be my solution. That and realizing that I don't know squat about the rest of my customers anyway.
For all I know when I make a quilt or couch throw for someone, I'm making it for a person who wants to kill his mother and wrap her up in something nice before he buries her in the back garden. I don't ask. I might ask where they heard about my avocation. I will sometimes decline to make something they ask for that I'm tired of replicating in a different set of colors or prints. I might offer something I've made on spec that I think they might enjoy. But then I'm not running a business that serves the public... I make stuff for fun (and charge only to recoup the cost of the fabrics). The rest is for love or friendship or to accommodate the request of a friend of a friend, not for money.
Maybe that's the solution for customers who feel rejected by any commercial baker, especially if the Court manages to put its collective heads up its behind and rules for the baker in this pending case. Forget the baker. Let someone make the wedding cake out of love.
And why be literal minded about the cake? It could be seven really great lasagnas instead of one too-sweet overdecorated seen-that-already wedding cake. I did that once for a broke bro and his bride and we all had a blast. Of course it took me years before I ever fired up a pot to cook lasagna again. But we showed those commercial caterers where to get off that first class train with their superstellar prices. Even the cookies at that reception instead of a wedding cake were home brew creations. It's the redneck way of gettin' hitched and having what left over to pay the band.
I am not sure why you write a freaking book on every post, but you are wrong. Yes you or I can say Merry Christmas all we like to people on the street or friends, but I can’t if my workplace says I can’t. Companies are worried about offending someone.
Want to talk about having a stick up someone’s butt. Let’s talk about the topic at hand. Because a baker would not make you a specific cake but offered other products, they couple takes him to court. How many other bakers are there that they could have gone to?
Restaurant worker was fired for sharing anti-gay receipt - Fox Newshttps://apple.news/AsLlgB5bdR6yo-BQaPciFYQ
Or how about this garbage? Yes what the customer did was wrong, but people boycotting the restaurant because they think they fire the waiter for being gay. Give me a freaking break. He was just a complete moron that post someone’s receipt on social media. Anyone that has any sense at all knows you can’t do that, and you should be fired for it. Again does not excuse the customer, but this bull that everyone is out to get homosexuals it total garbage.
The Supreme Court agreeing to hear this case casts strong doubt that it’s quite that simple of thought.
I’m a strong proponent and supporter of gay rights and gay marriage despite being straight and conservative.
I’m also a strong proponent and supporter of sincerely held religious beliefs despite being an atheist.
The Court is involved because both parties have a strong compelling interest in fairness and tolerance. They are involved to help balance the rights and needs of both and to strike a delicate balance.
For some reason this thread has changed from being about the law and why or why not what happen was right or wrong, to a bunch of hypotheticals.
Just wait for the moment flat earthers and moon landing hoaxers join this discussion...
I thought the discussion was pretty civilized until a couple pages ago. Some people would prefer to assume this is cut and dry discrimination rather than looking at the facts. Also religious rights always seem to get put on the back burner.
But that argument does not hold much water. First, the artistic part of it. It's not like you walk into a bakery and tell the baker "create me a cake". You usually pick one from a catalog of wedding cakes that bakery offers.
Second, the argument also revolves around he was not discriminating against the people, just refusing to participate in the event. But by offering any other cake, which would still have to be baked specifically for them, he is indeed "participating" in the event.
You can't have it both ways.
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Pretty much this.
I never cared. OK, I cared when the City of Toronto put up the lighted tree one year and called it a Holiday Tree. NO, just hell no. I don't do a tree fr my holiday. It's a fricken Christmas tree.
I've always been OK when people wished us a merry Christmas. Usually just replied "Same to you". What really bugged me was when they'd then looked at my kids and asked what Santa was bringing them. Hard enough for Jewish kids at that time of the year without more reminders. One of the proudest I've been of my youngest, who was always a smart ass was when one day he replied "Nothing. Dad's too cheap to buy me anything". The look on the other person's face was priceless.
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Apparently he makes 100% customized cakes.
The argument rests on the idea that studying, preparing, and baking the custom cake is speech. If this is true - and the scotus will decide - the main element is the baker’s mindset, as it would be for a freelance speechwriter. Even admitting that it would be inconsistent, no one can force an author/artist to express something in a consistent way.
To quote you:
If you don't work for such a company, then you can still say it all you want. If you work for an employer who doesn't want you to say that, you have other options. Although you shouldn't be expecting total free speech at an employer anyway. An employer has the right to script your contact with their customers.
I didn't see an answer to my question in there. Instead I see constant deflection. Why can't you answer that question? What if there were no other bakeries around? It's an entirely possible situation.
Wow. That was really rude and uncalled for. Not what I would expect from you either.
Well duh...you can't give customers a big eff u on the phone either and still keep your job. That is just logical. It is all about the customers. Do you feel infringed upon in some way because of that?
Ah yes. But the implied notion throughout threads such as this one that no one is out to get us and it's all just innocent religious values and freedom is equally fallacious. Some people really do have hatred in their hearts and some people really do hide behind a religious excuse. Religion has unfortunately been used to justify discrimination and bad behavior for literally centuries.
Perhaps because we are not a theocracy? Because there is no one offical religion? Because there are many whose views are in conflict with each other?
I am sorry but it’s up to you to prove that there is an instance in which an individual is discriminating for whatever reason. Saying that there are historical precedents doesn’t change the fact that being this a grave accusation you have to prove it and prove that it breaks the law.
I get that. But there is a constant attitude from those on the right here that gay discrimination is a thing of the past and that people's motives are pure and religious in nature and they won't even consider it might not be. As if some sort of lightswitch was flipped and all that anti-gay bigotry just evaporated one day. When was that? Do you have a date when that happened?
Absolutely they do, but my question why did Merry Christmas all of a sudden become offensive? It wasn’t 20 years ago.
I am not deflecting anything. I don’t want to run down these hypotheticals because you could just keep adding different elements to them each time. Also is very unrealistic that there would not be place that would offer a wedding cake for a gay couple and you know that. If all else fails, there is a chain grocery store that would be happy to. So if we play your unrealistic hypothetical, what if there aren’t? What if no one would make the cake? Your saying that makes it discrimination because it could possibly lead to not getting a cake? That could happen for a lot of things, and this is a very poor argument. Seriously stick to the facts of the case.
I don’t really think it was that rude, but ok. The reason I say this is because it’s a ton of writing with no real substance. It’s a lot of deflection, when a few words could do.
Are we comparing saying Merry Christmas to eff u now? This is not a universal custom to not say Merry Christmas, some see this as offensive some don’t. When I say that I mean companies. In a way yes I am infringed on. I am not allowed to express my religious views as it might hurt customer service.
That is just it, you don’t know the bakers heart. You don’t know if he has hatred in his heart. Plenty of people use excuses for their actions all the time. Religion just happens to be the easy one to target.
Yes we pride ourselves on being open to any religion just as long as no one is offended because it’s not their religion.
I have clearly never said there is no gay discrimination anymore. I know for a fact there is, but that’s the case for a lot of things. The reverse can be said for the gay community. First thing assumed is it was hate and they were discriminated against. As though everyone is out to get them. It’s simply not the case every time.
"Slippery slope" problem would be my response.... even if as I have said, if someone doesn't want to make my cake and makes an issue over it being my lifestyle that's the problem, I'm likely to take my custom elsewhere.
But in your hypothetical, what's next? Landlord doesn't have to rent to a gay couple if the idea offends him? A bookseller and video store doesn't have to sell to either member of a hand-holding gay couple a copy of an R-rated video that he actually did sell a copy of to some guy yesterday, a guy whose sexual orientation was unknown and of no particular interest?
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Actually, it was sometimes considered at least thoughtless, perhaps offensive or let's just say unwelcome long before that. Twenty years ago was 1997. The first time someone told me in a workplace that they didn't celebrate that holiday so don't wish me Merry Christmas was in 1991. First time I realized "Christmas" was not a given for the season was somewhere around 1953 when a friend said her dad might not let her come over to help decorate our Christmas tree because she was Jewish. I figured ok whatever but how weird is that. I didn't know many Jewish people or a damn thing about the history of Jews at the time, obviously.
When the tag for winter holidays became a issue in retail venues, the retailers noticed.... then "holidays" seemed an appropriate tag and yeah that's when they started telling employees don't go there with the "Merry Christmas" greetings.
It's still not a war on Christmas. It's an attempt not to offend potential customers, that's all. It's possible Christians might be at least mildly annoyed if shopkeepers almost invariably wished us Happy Hanukkah.
Not that I don't agree that the war bit is silly, but I have been yelled at by who I can only assume was a crazy lady for saying Merry Christmas. She went on a rant about how inappropriate it was for me to assume that the other person was a Christian etc... I simply told her that the holiday is Christmas so "Merry Christmas" was an appropriate greeting and hurried out of that mess. The whole thing was a little scary as she was turning red and yelling about it all and following me out of the store.
There may not be a war per se, but there are those who want Christianity torn down and removed from society. I don't think they are the masses but they are out there.
Yeah but she's like any mildly deranged person,,,, sometimes you have to make discounts... I was walking up Amsterdam Avenue on a sunny morning and coming my way pushing a shopping cart was an old woman who vaguely reminded me of my grandmother, same color eyes and hairstyle... Our eyes met --hers sort of locked on to mine, actually although I didn't quite realize that in that moment-- and so I smiled at her and said something like "finally a nice spring day" or something.. and she completely I mean completely went off her rocker, throwing things out of her cart and cursing me... I ran into the laundromat and hoped she wasn't going to o a U-turn and come after me. You just never know, right?
I do know some atheists of course but they're laid back enough they don't care if you wish them Merry Xmas, they just say "to you too". Where they are likely to rant is same place I rant, even as a Christian, when push comes to shove in the separation of church from state in the Constitution. I want to keep living in a secular state. And be a lapsed Episcopalian. And have my cake and eat it too: no criminalization of wishing anyone happy anything.