Maybe we need to put it to the test ...........

Discussion in 'Politics, Religion, Social Issues' started by LIVEFRMNYC, Feb 24, 2018.

  1. LIVEFRMNYC macrumors 604

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    #1
    You know teachers with guns, relaxing gun laws for everybody in every state.

    A part of me wants to witness everyone play the action hero when something jumps off. A part of me wants to witness how many will fold up into a corner. A part of me wants to hear the excuses when everything doesn't go according to plan.

    I would also love to see how powerful the NRA is without any resistance. Let them have their way, their influence would be destroyed shortly after.

    I bet if this actually happened. Tougher gun restrictions so many want, would be implemented much quicker versus two opposing sides being in a never ending tug of war.
     
  2. A.Goldberg macrumors 68020

    A.Goldberg

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    #2
    As devastating as this most recent tragedy is and as stupid as the idea of arming teachers is, all I can say is spare me. I really hope your post is just some type of cathartic outlet for you.

    I've been around this forum for some time and know many of the regulars political stances, including yours. You are a proponent of political violence against other Americans. I'm not saying the some people you oppose aren't indeed despicable examples of human beings, but it creates a slippery slope of self-justified violence. If you feel justified to attack someone because they're racist or xenophobic or anti-Semitic, what's going to stop gun owners from attacking people trying to sensibly bolster gun control laws because they feel their rights infringed. If someone bullies (perhaps based on the aforementioned reasons) or "disrespects" (your words, from another thread) another student, do they have the right to attack them? Does that now justify school shootings?

    Furthermore, I can't believe you're actually relishing in the idea yet another disastrous school shooting just to try and prove a point. Your apparent desire for collateral damage (i.e. when things don't "go according to plan" - i.e. innocent students getting hurt? ...students other the bullies?) is disturbing. And it's sick that you'd be pleased to see someone make the ultimate sacrifice, risking to their life to save innocent others, just because they have gun. Seriously? Wouldn't it be better for all of yourself to "want" practical gun laws enacted that successfully prevent future school and mass shootings?

    The repeated commentary of wishing harm or death upon your political opposition, especially while supporting collateral damage, is absolutely disgusting. There's a word for it, it's called "terrorism". Look, I understand the Parkland Shooting and others have been extremely traumatic many Americans including myself, and I share a lot of your frustrations, but I implore you to do some serious soul searching. Because the way see it, you're ideology of self-justified anger-induced acceptance of violence is really no different than some of perpetrators of the most serious and intentional tragedies in our society.

    Not all of your anger and frustration is not unreasonable, again I share some of that frustration. But wishing harm upon others just to prove a point is not justified. Consider channeling this negative energy into something more positive- like peaceful protesting, promoting new gun control laws, making petitions, writing your politicians, debating the opposition with an intent to change their mind rather than argue, or simply hoping that productive changes can and will be made to gun legislation- and appreciate the progress that is made even if it's not 100% of the solution.

    I sincerely hope you can reflect upon this and perhaps find a more constructive way of coping with these negative emotions.
     
  3. ronntaylor macrumors regular

    ronntaylor

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    #3
    Unfortunately I think no matter what happens, we'll never have sensible gun laws in this country again. If Sandy Hook couldn't convince the gun lobby whores, nothing can. The NRA has the GOP in their pockets and too many Dems are scared ******** about appearing soft and/or standing up against the NRA.
     
  4. mudslag macrumors regular

    mudslag

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  5. 0007776 Suspended

    0007776

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    #5
  6. LIVEFRMNYC thread starter macrumors 604

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    #6

    You absolutely missed me with your assessment of myself. I never spoke of violence other than self defense. I challenge you to find any posts that I have.



    You completely missed my point. Multiple school shooting will continue to happen regardless. We are not achieving anything to prevent it while we are at this social/political stalemate.

    Sometimes, the only way to proves something works or doesn't work is to actually implement it. My post DOES NOT speak about offering up collateral damage in the form of human lives.






    If there is no resistance towards the NRA's ideology, then what power would they have? The NRA will not have support of the people once it's proven their way doesn't work.
     
  7. darksithpro macrumors 6502a

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    #7

    They won't, for the most part. CCW holders in general will not risk their own lives if they can find an escape route to secure their family exit and themselves. Only if they're backed in a corner will they engage an enemy. For example, if I'm packing a Glock pistol in a theater, and a gunman with a weapon comes in and starts to shoot up the place, I'll pull my weapon for sure, but I won't engage if I see a clear path of exit for my wife/girlfriend and possibly kids to find an exit. I'd be a fool to play Rambo and risk my own life. Not worth risking it if I know I could escape unharmed with people I love. Also, the potential for crossfire, hurting an innocent, that means I could go to jail.
     
  8. bradl macrumors 68040

    bradl

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    #8
    Completely apropos for this thread, especially if guns are allowed in schools..



    BL.
     
  9. LIVEFRMNYC thread starter macrumors 604

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    #9

    Exactly!!! That's my point.

    The expectations of what will happen when arming everyone, is over dramatized.
     
  10. darksithpro macrumors 6502a

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    #10

    That is a valid point. Just because someone is legally armed does not mean they will engage the shooter. The safety of loved ones far outweighs the heroism of stopping the threat. I don't think any level headed person would risk his, or her life if they had the option to flee with their family and friends. It is a valid argument. I certainly would not.
     
  11. A.Goldberg macrumors 68020

    A.Goldberg

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    #11
    Nonsense- "part of [you] wants" to see more violence unfold just so you can prove your point. Remember, your idea of "self defence" goes well beyond what "self defense" actually means.

    We talked about this LITERALLY two days before the Parkland shooting. In reference to "violence" you said...
    (Note, livelihood and life- as in defending one's life. They have two different meanings, and your definition of livelihood is quite broad as we will see below. By this definition you could get violent towards your boss if you got laid off)​

    Maybe this will make things clearer:
    A.Goldberg: :
    You: :

    You've excused/minimized all sorts of political violence, but I really don't want to get to sidetracked with unrelated topics. But really, vegan food? ​

    If school shootings are bound to continue (not an unreasonable statement), then why do are you "wanting" people to get hurt and fail at defending themselves and others? I'm sure if since we have multiple documented failures of armed guards at schools, is it really a stretch to think that teachers won't work. This has been reported on and virtually no school system is going to support teachers being armed, there's already been a massive backlash. So you can rest easy, having to continue to dream about people getting hurt.
     
  12. LIVEFRMNYC thread starter macrumors 604

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    #12




    You conventionally left out one of posts from that thread ....... https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/our-cartoon-president-even-worse-than-the-real-thing.2105656/

    And that's because it was YOU, that brought violence up and took my posts way out of context.

    You wasted your time proving nothing.

    Discuss this further in that thread, if you like.
     
  13. darksithpro macrumors 6502a

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    #13

    You know you quoted yourself, right?
     
  14. LIVEFRMNYC thread starter macrumors 604

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    #14
    Yea, that was on purpose.
     
  15. SRLMJ23 Contributor

    SRLMJ23

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    #15
    I honestly do not think ANYONE knows what they would do if God forbid were put in a situation like this, or similar situations. You may think now that if you could get your family out without having to engage the shooter you would do that, however, in the heat of the situation you might very well shoot the damn shooter to save many other innocent lives. You may completely go into shock or panic and not do anything, including getting your family out. Everyone responds different to these highly emotional/scary/life and death situations.

    I would like to think I would engage the shooter to help save innocent lives, but who knows what I would do if put in the situation?

    I just pray that no one in our MacRumors community ever has to deal with something like this. I pray other Americans will not have to deal with a situation like this, but I am a realist and just know that there will be other mass shootings unfortunately.

    God Bless you all!

    :apple:
     
  16. LIVEFRMNYC thread starter macrumors 604

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    #16

    I agree completely. But I think the probability is much higher that most will do what darksithpro mentioned, versus play the stereotyped hero.

    Now if the usual mass shooter were to just use a typical common handgun, then the probability will be much higher, that those with equal fire power would intervene. But these mass shooters nowadays are equipped with high powered assault rifles that can spray rounds much quicker. And these mass shooters sometimes have ballistic vests and alternate weapons as well.
     
  17. A.Goldberg macrumors 68020

    A.Goldberg

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    #17
    No, because it’s not relevant how we got on the topic, but you continued on with the discussion as shown. I selected those quotes because I knew where they were as we just discussed this days ago.

    Your words speak for themselves.
     
  18. LIVEFRMNYC thread starter macrumors 604

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    #18
    Again, I never mentioned violence or the premise of it. I was sticking to the context of that thread. Anyways, I'm over it, think what you want.
     
  19. SRLMJ23 Contributor

    SRLMJ23

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    #19
    I honestly believe that the President is trying really hard to listen and come up with solutions to help combat these horrible tragedies. Like I said, I am a realist and know we cannot stop all of them, but for the first time I feel like we have a President that can do more than any other President before him.

    That listening session was extraordinarily emotional, and I liked a lot of the ideas that the people came up with. We obviously have to implement more than one of these ideas. With a combination of them, I think we might make some progress.

    I obviously do not know, or have all the answers just like all of us, however, I am sick of turning on the TV and seeing these mass shootings. We need to act now, and we need to unite as a country/Americans. When we as Americans are united, we can accomplish anything. We have to stop all this hatred and divisiveness towards each other or nothing is going to change, in fact it will just continue to get worse. Just my thoughts...

    :apple:
     
  20. A.Goldberg macrumors 68020

    A.Goldberg

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    #20
    What...? Tell me what the context was when you’re responding to my opposition your your political violence? The thread was about a Trump cartoon show BTW, there was no other context your comment can be taken in.

    I’m not going to to get into a back and forth here about this. You stated in this thread you’d rather see a teacher trying to defend themselves against a school shooter (context given by your first line) rather than succeeding and stopping the disaster. I feel need citations to stop your deflection.

    I am just pointing out how disgusting that is and just how deeply resentful you are that you’d rather see people proved wrong and others suffer so that you can feel righteous.

    You know, it is possible to oppose teachers with guns (as I do) without wanting tragedy to happen just to prove people wrong.

    And in the context of all that’s happened your OP is just disturbing.
     
  21. LIVEFRMNYC thread starter macrumors 604

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    #21

    The divisiveness comes from unproven opinions on both sides. Nothing has truly been implemented to factor anything. Hence why I created this thread.

    One can say ban guns, and the opposing side would have a legitimate UNPROVEN argument.
    One can say guns for all in any environment, and the opposing side would have a legitimate UNPROVEN argument.

    What's needed is a proven solution. And not implementing towards one direction or the other only proves things will remain the same and get worst.
     
  22. bradl macrumors 68040

    bradl

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    #22
    Again, hence why I said to study those countries where things have worked and where things haven't worked. We have the "what hasn't worked" (we're living in it). But we need to study those places where it has. Again, see what they have done, take what we can from that, tailor to suit our tastes within our laws (that includes compromises from all sides), and pass it. We can always update what doesn't go right, but we sure as hell can't criticize what wouldn't work and point fingers saying "I told you so" when what we have right now is getting children killed.

    Japan and Oz provide a near combined 50-year case study on this that we are just throwing away and ignoring.

    BL.
     
  23. SRLMJ23 Contributor

    SRLMJ23

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    #23
    I agree with you on your point. However, don't you agree that the divisiveness, and I am not talking the normal disagreements we have in this country, but the HATRED from both sides towards each other is a huge problem and if we do not unite as Americans things are just going to get worse and worse and no solutions that come forward will be implemented. Look at after 9/11! We as Americans united and accomplished quite a bit. It is sad that it will probably take another 9/11 to get Americans united again. Obviously after 9/11, myself and I am positive most all of the country were sad, however, I felt so proud to be an American because we were united and we were not attacking each other and everything like we are doing now. We argue over the STUPIDEST things now, and that arguing leads to absolute hatred over thing that are for the most part inconsequential! Come on people, lets not wait for another 9/11 to bring us together...that would truly be so sad.

    *Sorry I rambled on there a bit, it is late and I am super tired.

    :apple:
    --- Post Merged, Feb 25, 2018 ---
    We need to look at Israel for how to fix our mass shooting issue. They do not have school shootings in Israel. Israel is a perfect case study of things we can implement to curb these mass school shootings. As I said, in this country we will never be able to stop all of these shootings (I believe), but I do believe we can stop most of them if we come together and compromise on BOTH sides.

    :apple:
     
  24. LIVEFRMNYC thread starter macrumors 604

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    #24
    I agree. It's the same way I feel when arguing for Universal Health Care.

    But America is a stubborn country, that "seeing is believing" is a lot of people's only mentality.




    The hatred is a whole other issue, and is not really connected to the topic, but more connected at the division that existed between both social/political parties for the longest. The same amount of hate would show if Liberals choose Pancakes and Conservatives choose Waffles.

    But I agree, the hate has to go and is an unnecessary distraction. Unfortunately, both political parties use the hate of citizens for their own agenda.
     
  25. A.Goldberg macrumors 68020

    A.Goldberg

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    #25
    Israel has far more sensible gun laws for the most part. The problematic aspect is that in Israel you need a justified purpose to own a gun. It’s mostly highly ranking military officials who own personal guns and people who live in dangerous risky such as the West Bank settlements. Overall there are a fraction of guns in circulation per capita compared fo the US. The US has about 1 gun per American, Israel has 7 guns for every 100 Israelis.

    Another factor is that there are highly trained armed military and police everywhere, security methods are stringent everywhere, so it helps dissuade attacks and stop problems before they start. And the Anti-gun laws are more supported as they’re more out of self preservation from the already chronic terrorist attacks versus the occasional school shooting.

    We won’t ever probably get quite to the standards Israel has, but adopting some of their methods in terms of eligibility and registration would be helpful.
     

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32 February 24, 2018