Megahertz, Once and For All.

agreenster

macrumors 68000
Original poster
Dec 6, 2001
1,892
2
Walt Disney Animation Studios
Hey there--

If you are new to MacRumors, you may not know why people who are mac-faithful pour money into Apple Computer. Lately, I have heard a lot of uneducated comments about why an Apple user would be willing to use a computer that is 'twice as slow' as the leading competition, the Intel Pentium IV. So, everyone new to the Apple platform, or anyone who is even starting to get curious, should read this so they can better understand where most of us are coming from: (you old-time Mac users will probably be bored)

The Mac runs on a PowerPC architecture, and also uses a much shorter pipeline. The megahertz, as you have been taught, is the only thing important in determining the speed of a mchine, when really there are a lot of factors involved. How fast a chip 'spins' is not necessarily going to tell you how fast a computer can render images, acquire high amounts of fps, edit DV, or even hardware render. Not always chips, but their corresponding systems are what make up the speed of a system. Motorola (Apple's primary chip maker) has managed to produce a chip and architecture that often out-performs 'faster' (mHz-wise) Intel chips running at 'double' the speed. Thats why we use Apple. Their computers are faster.

Apple and Motorola arent the only ones who have noticed this, and capitalized on it. AMD and Intel have both produced chips that dont rely on mHz rating to sell computers. Intel, for example, has produced the itanium chip, which has a top speed of 800mHz, and blows the pants off of ANY chip available, on any system. (its 64 bit) They offer it in the IBM Intellistation Z, and sell if for over 15 grand.

Quality costs, and thats why Apple is more expensive. They dont have a 64 bit 'Z-like' chip, but thats what the G5 is promising.

Please dont take my word for it though. There is plenty of documentation on this subject at Apple.com, or just jump on the nearest G4 and see for yourself. Macs are not money-burning, slow toys. They are actualy sophisticated machines, well deserving your time and interest. They havent done well in the recent years, not because of poor quality, but poor marketing and the consumer's unwillingness to see beyond the mHz rating. Check it out, you might actually see WHY Apple consumers are so faithful.

So everyone, please. Before you make the same mistakes others have, do your homework before making uneducated posts. You will soon realize that many Mac users use PC and Unix systems as well (like myself) and try to give fair remarks on all systems. Intel makes a good chip, and so does AMD. But so does Apple and Motorola. Its time people started respecting Apple for the powerhouse systems they produce, coupled with their amazing sense of simplicity and style.

Respectfully-

[Edited by agreenster on 12-31-2001 at 09:43 AM]
 

Funkatation

macrumors regular
Dec 29, 2001
138
0
Um the Itanium

Is made by Intel. And last I read - it sold about 500 units total since it started shipping last July because of performance issues and lack of software. :)
 

agreenster

macrumors 68000
Original poster
Dec 6, 2001
1,892
2
Walt Disney Animation Studios
I apologize

Slip of the finger. Please note my changes in the post above.

Note: I would venture to guess that the reason it has only sold 500 units is based on cost, not performance. 15-16 grand is a lot to pay, wouldnt you agree? The Intellistation is geared toward very high-end designers on the cutting egde, and those who require tons of power. ie: large studio 3D animators.

Note: I would also venture to guess that the reason they noted 'lack of software' in their findings is because most large 3D studios write their own software.

;)
 

Funkatation

macrumors regular
Dec 29, 2001
138
0
Well.

Cost is only part of it, remember, IBM and Sun both have thier own servers etc that sell for that much. the VLIW that the Itanium uses is really different than what everyone is used to. Um I'd post a link but I saw it on zdnet somewheres a week or so ago saying how much the sells sucked, because of perfomance issues, and Intel saying "Wait for McKinley" sort of like a "beta" processor in a sense. And actually its cheaper than a system made with an UltraSparc III or Power4.
 

agreenster

macrumors 68000
Original poster
Dec 6, 2001
1,892
2
Walt Disney Animation Studios
Im not arguing the fact that any chip is perfect. Hell, we all know that. But I was simply trying to illustrate a point. A chip is not always the main proponent of the speed of a computer. It is certainly the center of the action, just like an engine is. But if the rest of the architecture doesnt support the chip, then the clock speed is useless.

64 bit chips are the next big thing, and Intel is just trying to perfect their version of it. And Ill be the first one to tell you that Intel makes good chips, especially for the price. However, that is not to say that the Motorola/Apple chip architecture isnt as good, or better. I just hate it when people say that a 867 mHz G4 is half as fast as a 1.6 gHz Pentium IV. It just isnt. Ive used them both. They are nearly identical.

Thats why when I computer shop, I try to look at what I want a computer for, and buy according to that--not always the processor speed. (Firewire and OSX are very useful tools) I am a 3D animator/Digital Effects/Digital Editing Student, and Apple is the computer I chose. I can do more on my 2 year old 400mHz G4 than many people can do on a brand new computer. No Apple isnt perfect, and dont get me wrong, Im one of the few people here who actually use 3 different OSes on a regular basis and enjoy all of them for what they are worth. But Apple is who I use, and it is an amazing, stable, fast, good-looking system.
 

eyelikeart

Moderator emeritus
Jan 2, 2001
11,849
0
Metairie, LA
The Itanium....wasn't it supposed to give the PowerPC a run for it's money? There was a lot of hype surrounding it the time of it's release....and now not much of anything...
 

agreenster

macrumors 68000
Original poster
Dec 6, 2001
1,892
2
Walt Disney Animation Studios
Too Expensive

The itanium is better than the PowerPC. Ive used it and it can hardware render on the fly. (for those 3D guys out there, that will make sense. Just know that it is un-freakin believeable) It was just so cutting edge that it was they had to price it too high.

Hopefully, the first cost-effective 64bit chip will be the G5.

 

justthefacts

macrumors member
Dec 6, 2001
38
0
To all, how can you compare mhz in any manor with systems that are so different ?
You cant say an Intel 800 is slower, faster, or the same as any Mac.
It all depends on what you are doing !
A G4 might be faster than a 1.6 gig in SOME applications. But in other aplications a PII could beat the latest mac.

Its all about your particular applications, and you all cant generalize these things like you do.

As for greensters comments on why mac hasn't had very good years. He is correct, but missing facts. Due to my name, i must step in.

Mac primarily isnt successful because they are "different" they even market themselves that way. The day most people are graphic and video artist is the day most people will own macs.
 

justthefacts

macrumors member
Dec 6, 2001
38
0
I do not have a lot of exp. with macs.
But recently I got to work with a colleague on two imacs. They were so slow. You could hear the hardrives chugging. My friend (mac guy) told me they put something like 5400 rpm drives in those. Now for the price, I could have built a much faster IBM compatible. Either way, I saw a machine in the Imac that compared to a emachine or compaq's speed. It also crashed a couple times, which my friend cleaned all of that up and made it run better. Just like I have done with many a IBM compat. It all sounds the same to me when you discuss speed and realiability. Most of it is based on the user, maint., etc.
 

jefhatfield

Retired
Jul 9, 2000
8,803
0
good discussion

i don't know if you guys/gals are techs for a living, but this thread sounds like a lunchtime (or 3am) shop talk discussion

are you guys going to be techs, because you have a pretty good understanding of how the machine works

oh, that's right...you guys/gals would more likely want to make something with the computer instead of stand there with a set of tools like me and wait for the thing to break only to fix it to have the next person break it again

but if the latest journal on chipsets makes you more excited than the si swimsuit/chip n dale calendar you got from your frat or soririty drinking friends, then you are hopelessly a techie



[Edited by jefhatfield on 12-31-2001 at 01:08 PM]
 

justthefacts

macrumors member
Dec 6, 2001
38
0
I am a programmer and IT consultant, i used to fix and build computers for a living and found the grass greener on this side of the fence.

If I am charged with being a techie, I am guilty.
 

Kela

macrumors 6502
May 12, 2001
287
0
US
PEOPLE PEOPLE!

SHUT UP ALL OF YOU!!! ITS NEW YEARS!!! (and i dont want any snide replys about different time zones) IF KELA CELEBRATES NEW YEARS THEN SO SHOULD THE WORLD>
 

justthefacts

macrumors member
Dec 6, 2001
38
0
KELA rules kela's world..but not mine.
ANd i am getting ready for a big party tonight.


I am technie and proud of it..and its rewards.
 

sauria

macrumors regular
Jul 2, 2001
213
8
Texas, USA
Speed

Originally posted by justthefacts
To all, how can you compare mhz in any manor with systems that are so different ?
You cant say an Intel 800 is slower, faster, or the same as any Mac.
It all depends on what you are doing !
A G4 might be faster than a 1.6 gig in SOME applications. But in other aplications a PII could beat the latest mac.

Its all about your particular applications, and you all cant generalize these things like you do.

As for greensters comments on why mac hasn't had very good years. He is correct, but missing facts. Due to my name, i must step in.

Mac primarily isnt successful because they are "different" they even market themselves that way. The day most people are graphic and video artist is the day most people will own macs.
You do pay more for the coolest stuff!
 

justthefacts

macrumors member
Dec 6, 2001
38
0
Re: Speed

Originally posted by sauria
Originally posted by justthefacts
To all, how can you compare mhz in any manor with systems that are so different ?
You cant say an Intel 800 is slower, faster, or the same as any Mac.
It all depends on what you are doing !
A G4 might be faster than a 1.6 gig in SOME applications. But in other aplications a PII could beat the latest mac.

Its all about your particular applications, and you all cant generalize these things like you do.

As for greensters comments on why mac hasn't had very good years. He is correct, but missing facts. Due to my name, i must step in.

Mac primarily isnt successful because they are "different" they even market themselves that way. The day most people are graphic and video artist is the day most people will own macs.
You do pay more for the coolest stuff!
Pay more for the coolest stuff ? You dont specifically explain what you mean by that, but if you are using the old argument that macs are better and more expensive you are wrong. There are plenty of cool things i do on IBM compats. that mac people are amazed by and CANNOT do on their macs. I also know there are cool things to do on a mac that are exclusive. Its all relative, which is my entire point.
 

sauria

macrumors regular
Jul 2, 2001
213
8
Texas, USA
Re: Re: Speed

Originally posted by justthefacts
Originally posted by sauria
Originally posted by justthefacts
To all, how can you compare mhz in any manor with systems that are so different ?
You cant say an Intel 800 is slower, faster, or the same as any Mac.
It all depends on what you are doing !
A G4 might be faster than a 1.6 gig in SOME applications. But in other aplications a PII could beat the latest mac.

Its all about your particular applications, and you all cant generalize these things like you do.

As for greensters comments on why mac hasn't had very good years. He is correct, but missing facts. Due to my name, i must step in.

Mac primarily isnt successful because they are "different" they even market themselves that way. The day most people are graphic and video artist is the day most people will own macs.
You do pay more for the coolest stuff!
Pay more for the coolest stuff ? You dont specifically explain what you mean by that, but if you are using the old argument that macs are better and more expensive you are wrong. There are plenty of cool things i do on IBM compats. that mac people are amazed by and CANNOT do on their macs. I also know there are cool things to do on a mac that are exclusive. Its all relative, which is my entire point.
The blindness of the Dark Side!
 

justthefacts

macrumors member
Dec 6, 2001
38
0
Re: Re: Re: Speed

Originally posted by sauria
You do pay more for the coolest stuff!
The blindness of the Dark Side!
Ah, young skywalker, it is you who are confused. You know not enough to realize that you and your petty friends are the darkside. And it is I and Obi Bill Gatobi that are fighting to restore all that is good to the galaxy.

[Edited by justthefacts on 01-01-2002 at 01:42 PM]
 

sauria

macrumors regular
Jul 2, 2001
213
8
Texas, USA
Re: Re: Re: Re: Speed

Originally posted by justthefacts
Originally posted by sauria
You do pay more for the coolest stuff!
The blindness of the Dark Side!
Ah, young skywalker, it is you who are confused. You know not enough to realize that you and your petty friends are the darkside. And it is I and Obi Bill Gatobi that are fighting to restore all that is good to the glaxay.
The force is powerful with this one
 

justthefacts

macrumors member
Dec 6, 2001
38
0
Originally posted by eyelikeart
Even though he/she's trying to keep an open mind it seems, I think justthefacts likes to stir it up a bit...

he he he....
Perhaps you are right, but only in the interest of good debate and conversation. I would never put down mac people for choosing a more expensive inferior system because that would be wrong. Instead I embrace my Macloidian brothers and appreciate them for their difference while hoping to show them the true power of the force. The force does not have to cost 3,000 kilobits (or trade for one air speeder).
 

DannyZR2

macrumors 6502
Sep 18, 2001
331
0
Texas
idiots

Ok.. I'm glad that just me being a techie.. and get excited over new stuff to come out DOES NOT mean that I am a freakin idiot starwars NERD who tries to relate my world to one from a freaking movie!

who let the junior high posters in anyway?
 

justthefacts

macrumors member
Dec 6, 2001
38
0
Re: idiots

Originally posted by DannyZR2
Ok.. I'm glad that just me being a techie.. and get excited over new stuff to come out DOES NOT mean that I am a freakin idiot starwars NERD who tries to relate my world to one from a freaking movie!

who let the junior high posters in anyway?
All right was this ness. ? Just because someone else made reference to Star Wars, and I picked it up doesn’t mean EITHER of us are what you describe. How about not trying to surmise a persons' whole persona based on a few post?! I also race watercraft (couple national titles and one world title to my name) and am into stereo's, my newborn son, dance, music, and I am quite attractive and do not wear glasses or wear a pocket protector. Nerd is hardly a fit and just description. To go further and use "freakin idiot starwars Nerd" is definately uncalled for.
 

Sleepy

macrumors newbie
Nov 12, 2001
26
0
Why did you just point any of that out? I always find these kinds of rebutles amusing. They seem to indicate something else entirely. Ill let you decide that one though.