Memories Pizza case proves that many conservatives are hypocrites

Discussion in 'Politics, Religion, Social Issues' started by zin, Apr 4, 2015.

  1. zin macrumors 6502

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    #1
    This 'religious freedom' case involving the pizza parlour business raises another unrelated point about economic views commonly held by conservatives. It's so interesting that conservatives who support the free market have utterly abandoned this ideal in this case.

    In a true free market, self-described by those who support one, the protesters and boycotts would have been permitted and this business would have went bankrupt permanently ('letting the market do its job'). Instead, a subsidy of over $800,000 has been provided and allowed the business to remain operational (or at least soon to return), distorting the supply and demand balance that supporters of a free market cherish.

    It seems when their ideals are compromised, namely religious beliefs, their support of the market erodes to the point of supporting unfair subsidies at the expense of competitors and all in opposition to the demands of the market.

     
  2. citizenzen macrumors 65816

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    #2
    Normally I'm going to agree with you. But in this case I think you can separate between what is policy vs. what is charity (championing?).

    They would say that their overriding philosophy hasn't changed, but that this is a special case where their support is more of a political statement than an example of how they view the free market.
     
  3. chown33 macrumors 604

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    #3
    Exactly. Because money is speech, so free money is free speech.

    </sadly-disillusioned>
     
  4. technosix macrumors 6502a

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    #4
    Hussein the great divider and instigator is behind the hate campaign against the Republicans. (I'm NOT one). It's just getting awfully old that one cannot read the news from any source at any time on any day without being bombarded obscenely with propaganda.

    I've never heard this so called "leader" ever suggest everyone sit down and work things out. Instead he plays the victim script masterfully, controls the media, threatening that he's got a phone and a pen and will do things his way.

    Now there's an exemplary example of narcissism :eek:
     
  5. NT1440 macrumors G4

    NT1440

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    #5
    ...How did the president get into this discussion? :rolleyes:
     
  6. Renzatic Suspended

    Renzatic

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    #6
    Well, support is free speech, so giving money to support a business or cause you want to stand behind isn't hypocritical of their beliefs in and of itself. In a lot of ways, it is the "free market speaking", because the free market doesn't have to include everyone as a whole to allow for success in the marketplace.

    It's when the same people stomp their feet and complain when someone else does the same that would make it hypocritical.
     
  7. zin thread starter macrumors 6502

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    #7
    I disagree.

    This is a "special case" only because the precious market place decided on an outcome that conflicted with their other views, namely religious.

    Had the pizza parlour been boycotted for, as an example, its stance against young children on its premises, the same people would have proclaimed that for it to lose business and go bankrupt is simply the market doing its job.

    Giving money to support a business implies purchasing goods and/or services from the business. This is exercising your right as a consumer. Donating to a business is much the same as a subsidy, which according to those same people who support a free market, is distorting and not desirable.
     
  8. mrkramer macrumors 603

    mrkramer

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    #8
    What does a dead Iraqi leader have to do with this thread? :rolleyes:


    I will admit that I haven't been following this case closely, and the OP didn't post a link for me to update myself on it, but from the little bit that I know, how is the people raising money to help out the Pizza place and keep the protestors from shutting them down any different than the counter protestors you will often see against groups like the Westborough Baptist Church?
     
  9. Renzatic, Apr 4, 2015
    Last edited: Apr 4, 2015

    Renzatic Suspended

    Renzatic

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    #9
    You're forgetting one thing: the government isn't the one providing the subsidy (at least as far as I know). So by their standards, it's all right.

    Is it ridiculous? Sure is. Saying that getting money from the government is evil, while getting it from the private sector is good and just is stupid because, well, money's money. It's being given for the exact same cause, regardless where it comes from, and ultimately it's a bunch of people doing stuff with money the public has provided them, either through taxes or for the purchasing of goods and services, that they as a whole might not necessarily agree with. But they're still working within their beliefs.
     
  10. zin thread starter macrumors 6502

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    #10
    It is my understanding that supporters of a free market argue against subsidies of all kind, regardless of whether they come from government or private entities, because they distort the supply and demand paradigm.

    Now, if those 30,000 people who donated collectively purchased or invested their $800,000 in fresh pizzas from the parlour, that would be different.
     
  11. Happybunny macrumors 68000

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    #11
    A dead ex-dictator of Iraq, is behind all the political problems in the US.

    I would like to see a source for that claim.

    I do know something else that is getting extremely old.:(
     
  12. iBlazed macrumors 68000

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    #12
    The memories pizza case is pretty funny. Tens of thousands of like minded people from across the country crowned a bigot queen and made her rich out of their own pockets. Honestly though, good for Crystal!
     
  13. Renzatic Suspended

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    #13
    There probably are a few hardcore folks who scream about any donation, because money for nothing is "communism". They're probably out picketing soup kitchens as we speak.

    Though from my understanding, the biggest difference left leaning and right leaning capitalism is simply where the money comes from. Donating to a cause or business is still a form of the yee olde free market because it's money given willingly, and an act of free speech, whereas a subsidy supported through taxes is...I dunno...some scary word. Tyranny? Hell, I dunno.

    If you ask me, it's a distinction so thin, it barely exists. If a business gets money through donations from the public, they won't need to hit up the government for a subsidy. If they end up failing despite that, that's wasted money out of our pockets. If they hit up the government, get their subsidy, and end up failing anyway, then that too is wasted money out of our pockets. Either way, it's not going to bankrupt the country or the public as a whole, and when you get right down to it, both were used to support a private business. Why argue at all? For the sake of it?
     
  14. obeygiant macrumors 68040

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    #14
    So it's settled? Conservatives are hypocrites.
     
  15. jkcerda macrumors 6502

    jkcerda

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    #15
    [​IMG]

    TAX payers bailing out a failed CO is a subsidy, people are free to do with their money as they see fit, pizza parlor is laughing all the way to the bank.
     
  16. boast macrumors 65816

    boast

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    #16
    No I'm not.
     
  17. jkcerda macrumors 6502

    jkcerda

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    #17
  18. sigmadog macrumors 6502a

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    #18
    If you can't see the difference between money freely given and money taken by force, then there is no further discussion possible.

    Or maybe you are simply anti-choice?
     
  19. zin thread starter macrumors 6502

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    #19
    Of course there's a difference between money given freely and money taken by force.

    There is not, however, a difference in principle between money given (in return for no goods or services) from the Government and by individuals. When given to a business, it's a subsidy in both cases.

    Those 30,000 people, of whom I suspect a strong chunk support free market economics, are subsidising a business that would otherwise be bankrupt without their meddling in the market that they so dearly support.

    The hypocrisy is that had the pizza parlour been discriminating for some other non-religious issue and then was the subject to boycotts, they would proclaim that their bankruptcy is simply the market at work.
     
  20. Renzatic Suspended

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    #20
    You're not really getting to choose either way. Like say Wal-Mart, Target, Bi-Lo, etc. decide to get together and donate some of their profits to a cause you don't agree with. You and hundreds of thousands of other people have indirectly funded it, and the fact you don't agree with it is entirely a moot point, because the money is out of your hands. You never once thought that your love of Cheez-Its would have such huge social implications, did you?

    Now of course you don't have to continue donating to their cause because you can always shop elsewhere. But what happens if more businesses jump in on this cause? What do you do then? Your options become more and more narrow. The fact is, you have no control over what your money is used for once it leaves your hands. But your money, or what was once your money before you spent it, makes you indirectly responsible for funding things you take a moral stance against.

    A business in this regard is no different than the federal government. Other than that they're not forcing me to buy from their stores under "threat of force" as that old popular saying goes, like a bunch of IRS guys have shown up at people's house armed to the teeth so they could bail out a bunch of faltering businesses on their dime. TYRANNY! OH MAH GAAWWWDD!

    So it's all much ado about nothing. The only difference between the left and right in this regard is that the rules are slightly skewed so they look different, but still achieve roughly the same ends.
     
  21. ucfgrad93 macrumors P6

    ucfgrad93

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    #21
    Memories Pizza wasn't discriminating at all. The owners were asked a question about the Indiana law, and didn't answer it correctly. Thus they were subject to attack.
     
  22. sigmadog macrumors 6502a

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    #22
    It is a big difference in my view.

    Money "given" by the government is money first taken by force, then redistributed regardless of the intent or wishes of the person from whom the money was taken. That is a subsidy.

    Money "given" via a GoFundMe campaign is money first earned, then distributed according to the possessor's intents and wishes. That is a subsidy only in the broadest, least precise sense of the word, but a more exact word would be "charity".

    You seem intent on defining "subsidy" so broadly as to make it synonymous with "charity" in order to make a narrow point that fits an ideology.

    In the marketplace of ideas, I think one such as yours would require a lot of subsidizing in order to survive.
     
  23. Macky-Mac macrumors 68030

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    #23
    being given $800,000 is considered an attack? :eek:

    clearly there's good money to be made from being "attacked" !
     
  24. MacNut macrumors Core

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    #24
    The owner announced that he was a bigot. Thus was subject to attack.
     
  25. sigmadog macrumors 6502a

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    #25
    You have my vote for "Dumbest Post of the Day".
     

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