Men and women: Equal or not

Discussion in 'Politics, Religion, Social Issues' started by Mac'nCheese, May 11, 2012.

  1. Mac'nCheese macrumors 68030

    Mac'nCheese

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    #1
    Lame thread title, I know. I'll change it if you can think of something better. Anyway, a bunch of new stories/threads has us discussing this topic at work, are men and women equal and deserve equal treatment in every scenario. We agree on the obvious ones: equal pay for equal work, stuff like that. But what about sports, that thread on that golf club that doesn't allow women....can some things just be for men and others for women? And where do you draw the line? If women are allowed in men's clubs, do they get do use the men's room? No more "separate but equal" stuff? Do they take the good with the bad, split the check on all dates and no more "never hit a woman" stuff, either. Thoughts?
     
  2. iJohnHenry macrumors P6

    iJohnHenry

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    #2
    Separate, but equal.

    Like cats and dogs. Cats can't bark, dogs can't meow.
     
  3. splitpea macrumors 6502a

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    #3
    Good. That is important stuff, but it's not the only important stuff.

    Can some things be just for blacks and others just for whites? Was baseball a better sport before Jackie Robinson, would it be better without Willie Mays or Hank Aaron? Did you know that Jackie Robinson helped advance the civil rights movement in general by teaching white people to accept and even root for a black man?

    What does golf gain by excluding women from the highest levels of competition? What's the cost to female players, to male players, to little girls who like golf, and to a society as a whole that's sent the message that it's OK to shut women out of opportunities?

    Physical privacy in places where one exposes one's genitals sounds like a good place to draw the line to me.

    As a woman, I do. I split the check (or insist on covering a different part of the evening's entertainment, or later in a relationship, taking turns treating).

    And I expect other people to never hit other people, regardless of their gender, unless they were attacked, in which case I'd hope for them to respond equally to an assault regardless of the attacker's gender.
     
  4. iJohnHenry macrumors P6

    iJohnHenry

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    There is far too much 'invasion' of personal space going on today.

    Physical prowess over another person is a very weak solution.

     
  5. Mac'nCheese thread starter macrumors 68030

    Mac'nCheese

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    #5
    Well, that's why I'm asking. I think separating the races is stupid. There isn't any difference between people of different races other then skin color....But men and women are different. Is it ok to have two baseball leagues, one for whites and one for blacks? Nope. But for women and men? Maybe...
    I don't know. I wouldn't feel right putting women in the NFL. But playing golf? Why not? And is it wrong for me to feel that they can't play men's football just cause they would probably get hurt but playing golf never hurt anyone (not like that...)?


    yeah but.....sometimes people do get hit. Men are never supposed to hit women. Period.
     
  6. splitpea macrumors 6502a

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    Yes, in my opinion it is wrong. No, you should never force someone to play in the NFL, where they could get hurt, but why not let a woman make that same choice as a man does? Do you think she's less informed or less capable of evaluating the risks? Why do you need to protect her but not protect a man?
     
  7. MacNut macrumors Core

    MacNut

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    #7
    Men and women can't ever be true equals. If you want to say they should be able to get the same promotion that is one thing but to say they can both do the same physical activities is different.
     
  8. iJohnHenry macrumors P6

    iJohnHenry

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    It's a primal urge in most civilized Males.

    You protect your potential mates, and eschew your potential rivals, for want of a better word on a Friday night.
     
  9. Mac'nCheese thread starter macrumors 68030

    Mac'nCheese

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    #9
    That's actually a good point. If they want to take the risk.....
    And why do I need to protect her. I guess I don't but most men have been raised to think like that. It used to be a positive trait now I guess, some people think thats a negative.
     
  10. splitpea, May 11, 2012
    Last edited: May 11, 2012

    splitpea macrumors 6502a

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    Since elite women in many sports outdo the above-average men, I think that's a fallacy. Give them the chance, and only the ones capable of competing will make it to the pro level anyway. Yes, men put on muscle more easily than women. Women tend to have better endurance.

    And why shouldn't a woman play with men in a sport or position where agility and finesse are more important than brute force? (Golf, much of baseball, football placekicker, etc.) Recreational leagues in almost all sports allow women to play on the same teams as men, so why does a ban on them need to be *enforced* at the pro level? If she can't hack it she won't make the pro team anyway. If she can, why keep her from playing?

    And on the related subject of women in the military, I believe that physical fitness standards should be the same for women and men and they should both be eligible for combat roles. That may mean that some women aren't ever going to be capable of meeting the standards, but hey -- some men aren't (or aren't motivated enough to) either. That's why we *have* the standards, right?

    The first time you offer to protect me I'll excuse that as a misguided attempt at chivalry and depending on how you said it might consider it charming or just annoying. Insist on it over my protests, or refuse to let me do something on the grounds that I'm a woman and need protection, and you're being a self-righteous paternalistic *******.
     
  11. Mac'nCheese thread starter macrumors 68030

    Mac'nCheese

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    #11
    Do all pro sports ban women from joining men's teams? Which do you think will be the first to change that rule? I'm guessing soccer (football to you folks across the pond) or baseball.
     
  12. MacNut macrumors Core

    MacNut

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    #12
    If 2 people go for the same job, give it to the person best qualified and physically able to do it, be it a man or a woman. Don't change the standards just to make it easier for one or the other.
     
  13. Mac'nCheese thread starter macrumors 68030

    Mac'nCheese

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    #13
    What if a man wants to be a waiter at hooters?
     
  14. MacNut macrumors Core

    MacNut

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    #14
    Then I stop going to Hooters.:p The dude would have to have huge knockers to be qualified and who wants to eat after seeing that.
     
  15. iJohnHenry macrumors P6

    iJohnHenry

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    If he lives on tips, he'll starve.

    Next question please. Yes, you in the balcony!!!
     
  16. splitpea macrumors 6502a

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    #16
    I'd watch which sports have girls/women competing at a high level at high school and college age. I know that there have been girls who succeeded on high school wrestling teams, and at least one who was an excellent kicker for a football team, and there was an article once about a girl playing on a high school ice hockey team IIRC. They're also competitive in golf (although that seems to have chauvinism ingrained at the course level). And don't forget that a woman won the original battle of the sexes in tennis.

    There are also some sports that most people don't really follow outside the Olympics that might be considered (diving, skiing, stuff like that).

    Oh, and women already compete very successfully with men on a professional level in equine sports -- if anything they outnumber men in dressage and show jumping, and have also been successful in racing (ever heard of Julie Krone?)
     
  17. CalBoy macrumors 604

    CalBoy

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    #17
    Of course the genders aren't equal. Their mean capacity in different aspects are measurably different.

    But, the whole point of gender equality is that we approach egalitarian ideals. Even though women on average have less muscle mass, that doesn't mean a particular woman can't meet the strength requirements for the Navy SEALs or that a man can't suffer from anorexia. The point is we should judge people by their merits as much as possible.

    This is a bit of my own thinking out loud here, but do any qualifying women have an interest in pro football? Football players are already going to outclass 99.99% of men in size, I can't imagine there are very many women who can be in that range.

    I suppose the balance of people's feelings on this comes down to very deep notions of the sexes. It's a bit of chivalry that makes us want to protect women.

    A little common sense never hurts, and neither does being a gentleman. You can support equality without treating women like their one of your "bros."
     
  18. Mac'nCheese, May 11, 2012
    Last edited: May 11, 2012

    Mac'nCheese thread starter macrumors 68030

    Mac'nCheese

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    #18
    I do remember the original battle of the sexes but that doesn't count. A pro versus a blow-hard. He never had a chance!
     
  19. citizenzen macrumors 65816

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    #19
    Just to clarify ...

    Golf does not exclude women from the highest levels of competition. Anika Sorenstam, Michele Wie and others have played in men's tour events. And in this latest topic, it isn't really women's' play that is the issue, it's membership in a club.

    What is interesting about the debate whether the PGA should play at a course that excludes women is that a few years back the same question was asked about blacks. With the threat of losing the televised Masters tournament, Augusta National quickly found someone of color who could make the issue go away.

    It leads me to believe that in the social pecking order women rank lower than men more than blacks rank lower than whites. I wonder if anybody has done a study on it.
     
  20. iJohnHenry macrumors P6

    iJohnHenry

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    #20
    That might be a wake-up call for some.

    But the Blacks were Men, right?? :rolleyes:
     
  21. shinobi-81 macrumors 6502

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    Could be. Or maybe black men got interested in playing golf before white women did, which is a more likely reason for why the question about exclusion based on race came up earlier than exclusion based on gender. The social pecking order and its criteria varies from one community to another.
     
  22. KnightWRX macrumors Pentium

    KnightWRX

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    #22
    I'm all for equality. We're moving a friend in 2 weeks and we all agreed : the girls are moving the appliances and heavy boxes, the guys will do the light boxes and unpacking the dinnerware to place in the cupboards. Of course, we didn't consult the girls about it, we're pretty sure they'll like being equal.
     
  23. VulchR macrumors 68020

    VulchR

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    #23
    I might be biased - my mother was a lawyer who sued the US DoJ for sexual discrimination and harassment and won both times (she died young of cancer, I think in part due to the stress they put her under).

    The equality issue is not one of capability but of opportunity. It means judging people on what they do, and not prejudging them on the basis of sex, gender, race, sexual orientation etc.

    Here in Scotland many golf clubs are male only (one is tempted to ask why grown men would want to exclude women, but whatever). I agree that everybody must have the right to affiliate with whomever they want, but as soon as business is performed in a social club that excludes women, it becomes sex discrimination. And I'm betting a lot of business is conducted on gulf courses...

    For instance, the R&A in St. Andrews traditionally elects the Principal of the University of St. Andrews for membership, but this time around the Principal happens to be female. If she had accepted, she would have been allowed to go into the the ladies' lounge, but not the main bar. Obviously, she quite rightly declined, and one wonders why the R&A would have elected somebody by their job title other than to do business.

    If any of you golfers out there would like to pressure the PGA etc. to make the R&A enter the 21st century, then please do so. I live in Fife, and the R&A are an embarrassment because of their sexist attitudes. And don't get me started on the FA....
     
  24. MorphingDragon, May 13, 2012
    Last edited: May 13, 2012

    MorphingDragon macrumors 603

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    #24
    Men and Women are equal, however biologocal differences means that each sex has different needs. Both men and women are capable of having virile and feminine characteristics. I know a chick that could wreck my **** and I'm built like two paving stones nailed to a fridge.

    Violence can be very effective when is Blackmail involved. Blackmail, being primarily achievable through fear makes it very hard for the blackmailed to defend themselves. Fear for physical safety is a very good way to get a Blackmailer to drop his threats.

    Subtle ;)
     
  25. Gav2k macrumors G3

    Gav2k

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