Mexicans...please come back

Discussion in 'Politics, Religion, Social Issues' started by AP_piano295, Oct 4, 2011.

  1. AP_piano295 macrumors 65816

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    #1
    http://www.hulu.com/watch/285441/the-daily-show-with-jon-stewart-mon-oct-3-2011

    Monday's daily show, in particular the second segment, as brilliant as usual.

    It seems the jobs illegals are stealing aren't actually jobs "Hardworking Americans" want to do.

    Someday we might figure out that this American exceptionalism is bs and that were not necessarily the worlds number 1 destination by default :rolleyes: .
     
  2. leekohler macrumors G5

    leekohler

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    #2
    Can you paraphrase. I can now watch videos, but I can't update my Flash (this is why Flash sucks) without an admin password.
     
  3. Zombie Acorn macrumors 65816

    Zombie Acorn

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    #3
    Working a ****** job does not make it okay to break the law. End of story. I don't buy the "regular Americans won't do their jobs" crap. Stop paying out benefits and you will find out how quickly people become willing. I've worked some pretty ****** jobs including digging holes and roofing houses. I would revert back to doing those jobs again if needed and would do a much better job than the illegal help.
     
  4. AP_piano295 thread starter macrumors 65816

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    #4
    Basically it's a story about how illegals voluntarily leaving the country, (as well as being deported and kept out with a greater degree of efficiency) particularly in states which are increasing the "anti illegal" effort. Are now realizing that they've lost a work force which they actually relied on.

    In particular they interview a blackberry farm owner who was un-able to harvest 200K worth of his crop due to a lack of workers. Even though Georgia has some 500K un-employed, it turned out they didn't want to pick blackberries, a job which "lazy, freeloading" immigrants WILL do.
     
  5. leekohler macrumors G5

    leekohler

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    #5
    Wait- I'm sorry, I don't believe that this guy advertised his job opportunities to 500,000 people. That's simply not possible.
     
  6. AP_piano295 thread starter macrumors 65816

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    #6
    Perhaps, and I would agree our un-employment system certainly needs some fine tuning.

    At the same time, the next time I see someone bitching about "lazy illegals leeching off the system" I'll be happy to point out the fact that they WILL do the jobs that many Americans WONT.
     
  7. renewed macrumors 68040

    renewed

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    #7
    I'm sure slave owners had the same issues when slavery became illegal.

    Slavery was wrong. Illegals is wrong.

    That being said I think more efforts should be made to allow them to work here legally and gain citizenship.
     
  8. AP_piano295 thread starter macrumors 65816

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    #8
    Georgia has approximately 500,000 un-employed at the moment, of course the number of un-employed unskilled workers in his area might be relatively low and the illegal aliens there were fulfilling a very necessary role.

    Few people are going to re-locate for a low paying seasonal job and perhaps illegals are more willing to work ridiculous amounts of overtime (night work and field work during the day) so that they can support a family and send money home.

    ----------

    I heartily agree, I think there should be an easy path for immigrants who wan't to work in the states to do so, and I believe illegals already here should be extended the right to stay and work.

    I am however tired of the demonetization of illegal immigrants as freeloaders with nothing to offer, because it's frankly horse-siht.
     
  9. Zombie Acorn macrumors 65816

    Zombie Acorn

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    #9
    There is a path, and they should seek more information from the INS on immigrating legally, they may have to get in line and pay their dues though. They should have it easier than other countries however through NAFTA agreements. Why should someone who broke the law be rewarded while others wait for their applications to be processed through the proper methods?
     
  10. Mousse macrumors 68000

    Mousse

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    #10
    If digging holes and fixing roofs is your idea of back breaking, rubbish jobs, then I've got news for ya. I do that kind of stuff each weekend while fixing mine house and my dad's house. To see a real example of the kinds of jobs they're stealing from hard working Americans, look at the produces sections of your supermarket. Nearly all of those fruits and veggies were picked by migrant farm workers. It's hard, hard work. I've tried my hand at it for about half an hour, just for laughs, before giving up. The Mexicans got a good laugh at the city slicker taking half a hour to fill half a box.

    I agree with you about illegal immigration being a problem. But I don't see them trying very hard to fix the system. If they did, the price of food would skyrocket.
     
  11. jsolares macrumors 6502a

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    #11
    The path is for skilled workers tho, i'm not sure there's a path for unskilled workers which is manual labor afaik
     
  12. likemyorbs macrumors 68000

    likemyorbs

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    #12
    You know what? Next time my basement floods and i have to get my carpet ripped out and trash taken out of the basement, I will go to my local mexican pick up spot, if a dozen white guys crowd around my car looking for work i might hire some of them. Until then i stick with the mexicans.
     
  13. Rodimus Prime macrumors G4

    Rodimus Prime

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    #13
    which to me tells you that illegals were causing the wages to go down. They repress the pay for those low end jobs because that is what they are willing to take. It causes wages to go down for everything but the elite few at the top who take all the benfit.

    Reason it goes down is those low end jobs pay to low so that group moves up and takes jobs from the next level up but are willing to accept lower pay which does a rinse and repeat getting fewer people for each level up but still it puts more people in a given level than there should be.
     
  14. likemyorbs macrumors 68000

    likemyorbs

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    #14
    It's ok, it pays off for the middle class because we can get fresh produce for reasonable costs. Many complain fresh produce is expensive as it is.
     
  15. Zombie Acorn macrumors 65816

    Zombie Acorn

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    #15
    I am not a city slicker and I have helped plant and pick about every produce you would find in a typical supermarket. The pace of the labor may be tough, but the job really isn't. Given a few weeks of practice you would be good enough, except sometime in the future you'd probably want to do something different as the job is about as tedious and boring as they come.
     
  16. hulugu macrumors 68000

    hulugu

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    #16
    Immigration isn't a line at the DMV, rather the immigration system is highly complex, poorly understood by immigrants and even officials, and helps to create an underclass of undocumented workers in the United States.

    It's obvious that the US needs a real guest worker program, but all the immigration proposals fail because of the political right's obsession with amnesty.
    We need to revise our system to include migrant farm workers because they're necessary and important to our economy, not to mention the economies of Latin America.
     
  17. Zombie Acorn macrumors 65816

    Zombie Acorn

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    #17
    Immigration is very much like a line at the DMV. It's slow, you may or may not be qualified depending on the mood of your attendant or test drive, and there is a ridiculous amount of paperwork.

    If you aren't willing to go through the paces then stay in your own country.

    I just finished filing 250+ pages of forms and documents for immigration and I'll be damned if someone is going to just bypass the system and break the law without repercussions.

    If the farmers really need labor they can get temp visas for these folks, they would rather take the slave labor though.
     
  18. mcrain macrumors 68000

    mcrain

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    #18
    Why hasn't the guy in the article been arrested? He just admitted to illegally hiring workers for which he has no legitimate documentation. Lock his ass up.
     
  19. jav6454 macrumors P6

    jav6454

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    #19
    My same thoughts. I can believe 5000 people (at best). Even then its hard to believe not a single one of those didn't have financial problems to let this job go.
     
  20. jnpy!$4g3cwk macrumors 65816

    jnpy!$4g3cwk

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    #20
    I'm sorry, but, I'm not buying it. Feeling sorry for growers is not in my genes. Maybe if he paid a little more, he wouldn't have had any trouble hiring people? Heck, maybe I would have done some work on my vacation time. I'll give you a hint: when I was younger, I discovered that most of these growers would only hire illegals. You get to figure out why. It is complete and utter nonsense that nobody in Georgia is willing to pick blackberries. I'll give you another hint: most of these same growers are right-wing voters and supporters. We have the immigration "system" that we deserve, and it is based 100% on hypocrisy.

    And, from the consumer point of view, are cheap blackberries a "right"?
     
  21. hulugu macrumors 68000

    hulugu

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    #21
    It's not a line, there are multiple parallel processes depending on your current status, country of origin, etc. And this process is poorly understood and takes years.

    Ideally sure, but the reality is totally different and a government system should be used to address that reality.

    Which system, you applied for immigration to Canada.

    This process is costly and take years, plus workers would be required to reapply annually, something no one has any interest in doing.

    What's happening now is many undocumented workers are getting fake documents, so their status remains unchanged and they're fueling a market in identity theft, but they and their employers can still check the E-Verify box.

    Simply put, everything you're saying is a rigid response to an ideal structure. We don't live in an ideal structure, we live in a messy reality that we need to address with policy to give the best results.
     
  22. Lord Blackadder macrumors G5

    Lord Blackadder

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    #22
    Zombie Acorn: better at digging and roofing than any Mexican.
     
  23. mkrishnan, Oct 5, 2011
    Last edited: Oct 5, 2011

    mkrishnan Moderator emeritus

    mkrishnan

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    #23
    There's always some kind of balance to this. To exaggerate only slightly, if this story were taking place in Greece, you'd have citizens who refuse to pick blackberries for any more than 30 hours a week, and be paid any less than $50k a year with benefits. Maybe in some sense they're "worth" it, but in general, when an economy tries to jack prices for things up to compensate for this, it becomes more inwardly focused and less globally competitive, and the process spirals until they are left in some kind of stone age.

    I'm not saying the kind of wage that would attract an American to pick blackberries in Georgia is $50k a year. But there is also a fixed external element, which is how much it costs to import blackberries from somewhere else, where people will work for less. At that tipping point, it is likely that either the farmer-businessman will go to that other place, or else the competitors from that other place will drive her/him out of business. Neither of those scenarios is good for Georgia, or for "us" more broadly.

    At that level, I think this story is very much the same story of workers here in Michigan who want $25 an hour to do a job for which Georgians get paid $14 an hour and for which foreigners get paid even less. The protectionist answer hasn't played out too well in the past. And, the US has a long history of waves of immigrants entering the bottom of the US economy, to do jobs Americans wouldn't do, and then rising up. If anything, that's far less the story of immigrants today (many of whom come in with graduate educations and take jobs Americans lack the skill to do, at high pay).

    I'm all for immigration being legal, and for the workplace complying with labor law, but there are entirely too many "if he paid a little more" arguments that appeal to heart strings and not accounting books....

    EDIT: FWIW, NYT tells a story of a farmer in OK who uses H2A visas to staff $10.50/hr farm jobs with foreigners and cannot find residents to do the work.
     
  24. Ugg macrumors 68000

    Ugg

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    #24

    It's actually Colorado.

    Olathe, CO has about 1600 inhabitants. It's in the middle of nowhere.

    So, school has started already and if you have kids and you want to work for this guy, you either need to uproot them and put them in a school that may be ill prepared to deal with temporary students or find someone to take care of them while you work for him. The article doesn't specify how many weeks worth of work he has but it's obviously seasonal and it's in CO where winters are long.

    It doesn't say that he offers health insurance, but he probably doesn't. There's also no mention of where his migrant workers live. In their cars? Tents? Campers? rundown farmworker housing?

    It's all fine and dandy to say nobody wants to work for him but can you really have a life if you're a farm worker who is constantly moving from crop to crop? Here in California, it's actually possible because the weather is pretty mild. But in Colorado or Michigan or upstate New York, unless you're talking about greenhouses or mushrooms, there's no such thing as making a living off seasonal work. What are these workers supposed to do the rest of the year?

    The current birthrate per woman in Mexico is 2.1. 2.1 is basically replacement only and it's predicted that by 2030 Mexicans will no longer need to migrate north.

    What this highlights really is the fractured nature of food production in the US. Much of it takes place far from population centers (where the labor is) and it's seasonal which is sort of hard to build a life around. Cheap labor has encouraged labor intensive practices. What's needed is heavy investment in mechanization. A local example is how olives are grown.

    They used to be grown as single trees and nets were laboriously hung below them and as the olives dropped they were collected by hand and put in a truck. Now, they're grown in rows, much like hedges and mechanical pickers go in with a stick that shakes the branches and the olives fall into a basket below. All that's needed is a driver for the machine.

    We need a new revolution in food but rather than the so called "Green Revolution" that simply pumped our food full of oil based chemicals, we need a revolution to rethink the entire process and to encourage local production. Detroit is actually a prime example of how 'locavorism' has made a huge impact on communities.
     
  25. Zombie Acorn macrumors 65816

    Zombie Acorn

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    #25
    The process may be poorly understood by those without education enough to research, really all that will have to happen though is for an employer to show a labor shortage in his sector that will cause him to need seasonal labor. People drop down to the Midwest from Australia every year to take up farm jobs.

    Even in Canada your visa is only good for a year or two tops and you have to reapply. This is normal for temp workers and it's no different for any other countries, so why are we only focusing on the US?


    There's a reason they are being used for cheap labor.
     

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