Michelle Williams says she was 'paralyzed'

Discussion in 'Politics, Religion, Social Issues' started by jkcerda, Jul 23, 2019.

  1. jkcerda macrumors 6502a

    jkcerda

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  2. Solver macrumors 6502a

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  3. LizKat macrumors 603

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    Two tired and getting tireder ideas when discussing performance of same job for different pay based on gender.

    Hence the Paycheck Fairness Act passed by the House and now languishing in the Senate as yet another attempt to update the 1938 Fair Labor Standards Act and the 1963 Equal Pay Act to remove loopholes that still do permit wage discrimination against women.

    By the way one of the stipulations in the pending legislation is that employers must stop the still frequent practice of punishing employees for revealing wage information.

    So whoever argues that "you get paid what you negotiate and settle for" does not seem to realize that women are often "negotiating" blind to the fact that men in the company make more than do women for the same job.

    So sure, she can be told well the starting pay for this job is 28K and she says man I know I can do a great job here but I can't live on 28K, and he says OK I believe you we'll start you at 31k how about that, and she balks and he says well that's as far as we can take it but we really hope you'll come on board, so she settles for the $31K and meanwhile her male coworker who started last week "settled" for $35K.

    We've not been talking about "freedom" or "equal opportunity" here, or people expecting equal outcomes for equal opportunity. We're talking about denial of equal outcome strictly by denial of opportunity and information that would enable equitable negotiation and make "equal outcome" at least a possibility of equal endeavor to succeed in the negotiations. We're talking pervasive wage discrimination against females.
     
  4. jkcerda thread starter macrumors 6502a

    jkcerda

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    We all negotiate blind
     
  5. yaxomoxay macrumors 68040

    yaxomoxay

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  6. ronntaylor macrumors regular

    ronntaylor

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    Another ancient story. Walhberg donated his additional salary to the #TimesUp campaign. And the agency that represents both actors added another $500K for their shameful misrepresentation of Williams. This controversy has spurred many agencies to work harder to make sure women are not taken advantage of with respect to pay equity/equality.
     
  7. Huntn macrumors demi-god

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  8. jkcerda thread starter macrumors 6502a

    jkcerda

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    winner winner carne asada dinner.
     
  9. LizKat macrumors 603

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    Not when employers quit stipulating you can't reveal your salary if you're an employee. That practice is what keeps both men and women in the dark but also perpetuates the gap. That's why efforts to reform the 1963 legislation keep having a section that prohibits punishing employees for discussing pay scales.

    Weird how sometimes the people who have wanted to keep corporate pay practices behind a curtain are the same ones who would be up in arms if public servant pay schedules were concealed. It's not that they necessarily would have cared about male/female pay discrepancies for a position, they would only have been on about the expenditure of taxpayer dollars. But, knowledge of the pay schedule in a corporate setting is what narrows the gap over time.
     
  10. JagdTiger macrumors 6502

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    Way too much money to begin with, it’s shameful.
     
  11. kapolani macrumors 6502

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    Where is this practice you speak of?

    In my industry all pay is posted. All the government workers I work with have their pay rates posted as well.

    Women and men get the same pay. It's that way in every industry, that's the law.

    It differs when talking about the entertainment industry.

    Your drawing power, what you can bring in, dictates the pay scale.

    The NBA brings in millions/billions of dollars. The WNBA doesn't. No woman is going to get paid like Lebron James. It's not about fairness, it's about economics.
     
  12. jkcerda thread starter macrumors 6502a

    jkcerda

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    let me know when that happens.
    --- Post Merged, Jul 24, 2019 ---
    if it was, then corporations would hire more women to save 25% of the income................ it is simply not so.
     
  13. Huntn macrumors demi-god

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    I agree, but I’ll add that if that money did not go to the actor attributed to the success of a movie the talent that made it happen, it would go to Studio.
    --- Post Merged, Jul 24, 2019 ---
    You are incorrect, and women are making inroads into Corporate America.
     
  14. LizKat, Jul 24, 2019
    Last edited: Jul 24, 2019

    LizKat macrumors 603

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    #14

    The practice of suppressing pay scale discussion is still quite common. It's already supposed to be illegal in most circumstances but is often circumvented and employees don't realize the request or command not to discuss pay is generally impermissible.


    https://www.npr.org/2014/04/13/3019...icies-at-work-often-illegal-and-misunderstood

    https://iwpr.org/wp-content/uploads/wpallimport/files/iwpr-export/publications/Q016 (1).pdf

    As for women and men getting equal pay for same job in every industry, excuse me but that is not the case. If it were then there would not be pending legislation about "paycheck fairness" put up periodically over and over again ever since the 1963 legislation attempted but only partly succeeded in improving on improve on what the 1938 legislation had to say about equitable pay for labor.

    Don't forget that profit margin pressures on a company today causes it to continue considering labor just another cost of materials subject to downward revision. So whatever can be done to keep that cost from climbing will certainly be attempted. In companies where it's discouraged or prohibited to discuss pay outside the manager-employee conference, the management holds advantage in new hires and pay raise negotiations. And any existing gap in same pay for same work across so called protected group barriers, e.g. race, age, gender, may go undetected
     
  15. jkcerda thread starter macrumors 6502a

    jkcerda

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    if there was a pay gap they would DOMINATE corporate America, hell they would dominate most sectors that pay above minimum wage :rolleyes:
    --- Post Merged, Jul 24, 2019 ---
    it's no one's business what i make, it's not business what anyone else makes.
     
  16. Huntn macrumors demi-god

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    You are wrong.
     
  17. jkcerda thread starter macrumors 6502a

    jkcerda

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    first you call me amazing, now you say I am wrong, make up your mind please :p

    the left loves to pretend corporations are greedy and don't like paying taxes or their fair share, in the same breath you are going to tell me that corporations are willing to pay men 25% more because they hate women, please.......:rolleyes:
     
  18. Huntn macrumors demi-god

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    And you overlooked the :rolleyes: :oops: in that reply
     
  19. LizKat macrumors 603

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    The point is that some companies prohibit discussion of pay scales, which often (not always) is a violation of even the old 1938 labor laws in the USA. When employees may come to realize that some group at their shop makes more money for the same job, it's actually illegal for the company to prohibit them comparing notes and then negotiating for better pay, for instance.

    From the cited NPR piece:

    Under the National Labor Relations Act, enacted in 1935, private-sector employees have the right to engage in "concerted activities for the purpose of collective bargaining or other mutual aid or protection."

    The language is somewhat antiquated, but according to Estlund, "it means that you and your co-workers get to talk together about things that matter to you at work."

    Compensation is one of those things you can talk about. The National Labor Relations Board, says Estlund, "has long held that these pay secrecy policies that many employers have in writing violate the National Labor Relations Act."


    Even if an employee signs a nondisclosure agreement with an employer, Estlund says, the employee would still be protected when talking about salary.


    "You can't just declare information about people's pay to be confidential information that can't be discussed," she says.


    There are exceptions, of course. For instance if you work in Human Resources you can't just go around talking to people in the shop about who makes what. And when asked to provide test data for program changes like payroll etc., you must generate fake data for test site constructions.

    Some guy at one of my workplaces shipped me the real thing as "test" data one night when I was building a beta site for some developers. After I linked to where he said to pick it up and slammed it into the test site I ran a couple isolated queries and then ran one of the devs' report prototypes... whoa! Saw my own SSN scrolling past me. Hmm. Picked up phone and called my boss and reminded him what I was working on and that I got the test data,,,, and he said yeah so it's 10pm why do I care about this a lot? and I said "Uh, well before I destroy this so called test file they sent me that's real payroll data would you like to know what your boss makes?" He was smart though... little pause and then he said uh no just destroy it I will take care of this myself right now, you'll get another file in about an hour.

    (Heh I always loved it that he did realize I knew what he and his boss made.)​


    So you're right that sometimes it's "no one's business" who makes what. But context is everything and the laws are currently complex enough that they can be used to disadvantage entire classes of workers when pay scale discussions among employees are illegally prohibited. That is one of the things that the newer versions of paycheck fairness laws are meant to help correct.
     
  20. Raid macrumors 68020

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    The corporations definitely do not, nor does a prospective employee have to either.

    When I worked for one of the 'Big 5' Banks here, I did compensation surveys as part of the last job I had with them. These surveys are run by third parties and collect data on a variety of common jobs found in the industry. Now individual data is of course not shared, but you can be assured the final report has percentile ranges, and averages for salaries, and bonuses for each of the jobs listed (sometimes they do separate reports on benefits). So while it's not wage collusion by the industry, they are certainly aware of the current industry compensation levels for a particular job.

    The best thing is, some of these reports are done with companies who make the findings public. An interested person can poke around the internet and find them. It's worth doing if you're on the hunt for a job and want to negotiate compensation appropriately.
    --- Post Merged, Jul 24, 2019 ---
    You know you can be amazingly wrong... the PRSI is proof. :D
     
  21. jkcerda thread starter macrumors 6502a

    jkcerda

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    marriage is a better indicator :p
     
  22. VulchR macrumors 68020

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    Give it up. There are massive difference in pay between men and women and all available analyses point to discrimination contributing to that gap. Do you ever listen - really listen - to what women have to say about working? Frankly, if you made a statement like the one above around the women in science, you'd have to run for your life.
     
  23. kapolani macrumors 6502

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    Show me where a woman isn't getting paid the same amount as their male counterpart.

    In industries that are driven by its product (entertainment) that may be the case.

    The government GS pay scale is out there for everyone to see. Everyone gets paid the same.
     
  24. LizKat, Jul 24, 2019
    Last edited: Jul 24, 2019

    LizKat macrumors 603

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    I have made it clear I am speaking of private sector employment.

    EDIT: here is a list of jobs that do have discrepancy between male and female pay for same tasks


    Below is a link to a piece that if read with an open mind makes it perfectly clear that it's entirely possible a) to pay a male and female differently for the same work and b) to be able --indeed to prepare in advance to be able-- to explain or justify the difference in any of a number of ways that may be difficult for an employee to gainsay, i.e. matters of "attitude" and "quality of past experience" and so forth. (I am not saying such factors should not be counted. I am saying it is possible for such assertions to be false or not particularly relevant to the case at hand).

    https://www.shrm.org/resourcesandto...lations/pages/pay-disparity-for-same-job.aspx

    The piece is actually written to benefit HR managers and help them steer clear of pay differentials that might expose them to discrimination lawsuits. It does point out that "problems" :rolleyes: can arise when employees end up discussing their pay with each other, and that in resolving one complaint by adjusting the complainant's pay the company may leave itself open to other pay raises of a similar nature.

    These comments would not have been made if there were not instances of inequitable pay differences for same work by different employees whether or not a "protected group" is involved.

    The piece also underscores my own assertions that companies do of course wish to avoid having labor costs increase, and that confidentiality of payscales is a measure they prefer to maintain because it helps cut down the number of complaints along lines of different pay for same work performed and possibly also reduce litigation costs.
     
  25. yaxomoxay macrumors 68040

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    Let's equalize everything.

    [​IMG]
    --- Post Merged, Jul 24, 2019 ---
    Interesting, according to your the graph in the first article you linked, 63% (7 out of 11) of the jobs with the highest gap are are directly related to sales (Ins. sales agents, retail sales, sales and related, real estate brokers, personal finance advisors, marketing and sales, stock brokers). At least 2 more categories (18%) have something to do with performance revenue ("general managers", depending on the business, and "physicians and surgeons" which in the US are often independent and with their own practice).


    ales.[​IMG]
     

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33 July 23, 2019