Microsoft to Cut Off Support for Java in 2004

Discussion in 'Mac Apps and Mac App Store' started by Ouroboros, Jun 20, 2002.

  1. Ouroboros macrumors member

    Jan 30, 2002
    Oakland, CA
  2. firewire2001 macrumors 6502a

    Apr 2, 2002
    Hong Kong
    yeah.. i heard about this...

    it seems like theyre kinda in a fight.. like remember how msoft altered suns java stuff and then sun sued them.. ill bet this has something to do with their bad relationship..

    i think its kinda dumb, however, cause msofts virtual machine stuff really sucks for most of the (java) media availible on the internet -- stuff loads a lot slower with it than with suns java's stuff.
  3. gbojim macrumors 6502

    Jan 30, 2002
    I thought this announcement was pretty interesting because it really shows the arrogance of MS.

    One of the key points of the ongoing antitrust trial is MS retaliating against companies that do something they don't like. MS stated in the announcement that the decision was made because Sun testified against them during the ongoing remedies portion of the trial.

    So when does MS make this announcement? The day before final arguments were presented. I read the state's lawyers had a field day with it.
  4. Wry Cooter macrumors 6502

    Mar 10, 2002
    So is it good or is it bad?

    Considering MS Java 'support' to this point has been trying to throw a spanner in the works, writing their own replacement, is stopping this 'support' merely letting Sun work freely and unimpaired for once?

    Or is it more of a LOCK out of Java from any Windows operating system?

    I suspect the latter. Good Luck on MS convincing people they mean the former.
  5. Ouroboros thread starter macrumors member

    Jan 30, 2002
    Oakland, CA
    This is total arrogance, and in the end, I think this blatant arrogance will be the very thing that will finally destroy Microsoft. They simply can't keep doing this forever. To have a "Microsoft or nothing" approach will hurt them ultimately. Look at the damn pricing scheme for XP for example....
  6. Beej macrumors 68020


    Jan 6, 2002
    Buffy's bedroom
    LOL :D M$ is citing "security concerns" - what a riot! ROTFLMAO!
  7. j763 macrumors 6502a

    Nov 25, 2001
    Champaign, IL, USA
    OMG that's hilarious... Especially considering on average, every single week MS release a patch for a security vulnerability... Apple releases patches for really really minor stuff that wont effect the average user, what once every quater or so? stupid M$
  8. Foocha macrumors 6502a


    Jul 10, 2001
    Java is important to the Mac platform. Microsoft ceasing distribution of Java is damaging for Java and therefore bad news - not good news - for the Mac platform.

    As the situation currently stands, there appears to be some legitimacy to Microsoft's security concerns, since they are bound not to alter the code in anyway.

    We can only hope that the unsettling states achieve some remedy for this - by forcing Microsoft to include Sun's VM in future distributions of Windows.
  9. Ouroboros thread starter macrumors member

    Jan 30, 2002
    Oakland, CA
    Well that's a point. My point though was that Java has such a history and a very legitimate strong standard. This might:

    1) finally piss some people off for good and migrate away
    2) make the justice's case against Microsoft all the more sound, since they're pulling this crap so close to the decision making process
    3) just because Microsoft doesn't like it and crams their crummy language, doesn't mean that everyone is gonna eat that. Yeah history oftens goes MS's way, but hey, this could be the beginning of a reversal.

    I just see this as a joke. Its a little TOO flagrant, a little too self-assured. But at the same time, we all know that there's NO assurances in the tech industry. Sun could be a Sunset by that time for other reasons. Anyway, I still think the news is very interesting...
  10. rharder macrumors newbie

    Jun 21, 2002
    I don't think Java is Microsoft's biggest source of security holes...

  11. sparkleytone macrumors 68020


    Oct 28, 2001
    Greensboro, NC
    sparkleytone to cut off microsoft support in 2001. that was fun. now im happy.
  12. tcmcam macrumors member

    Jun 14, 2002
    Let MSFT and Sun Bicker, it doesn't matter

    I don't have a problem with Microsoft's decision.

    If SUN thinks they have the perfect Java implementation, let SUN ship it. If customers want it, they'll get it.

    Yes, it means Windows (out-of-the box) doesn't support Java, so it makes the MAC a better Java platform.

    But hey, let's get real. Java is not a client platform (in large quantity) right now, it's doing much better on the server.

    FinalCut, iMovie, PhotoShop, a gee.... I think these are written in C (either Objective-C or C++) and use Carbon or Cocoa. They can't use Java because Java's performance SUCKS. Yes, there are a few sites on the web that use Java (like the Weather Channel, etc), but they really don't need it (they could have made an animated .GIF instead).

    Java is a server language. You aren't going to choose your Desktop OS based upon a server language. If you are a SUN (or UNIX) server shop, you'll think Java support is important. If you are a Windows Server shop, you don't give a crap about Java. You'll write in VB, C# or another language tuned for Windows.

    Leave the courts out of this. Yes, I'm frustrated by some of MSFT's moves, but c'mon this battle was decided long ago.

    Remember when Java first was available on the web, every site put up some stupid Java app (CNN had their stock ticker, etc, etc). After a million customers complained about the lowsy performance, all those sites pulled their Java apps from their web sites (including SUN's very own web site). There are many ways to make good web pages without needing Java. Remember, Java was proposed for web sites before all the web site scripting came into being (JavaScript, VBScript, etc).

    So, until Java's performance mimics that of native apps (or processors get so fast we won't care), Java on the client is not that exciting. Let Sun and Microsoft have their legal quabbles, let's instead spread the merits of the world's best GUI on a time-proven Unix micro-kernel core. MAC OS X.
  13. Taft macrumors 65816


    Jan 31, 2002

    What I find funny about this is that MS dropped Java support about two years ago. As of a few days ago, the last JVM they released was 1.1, which is light-years behind Sun's current 1.4.

    Now, because of the Sun lawsuit, MS is releasing a 1.4 compliant version of their JVM. The only reason they are doing it is to placate Sun. They really don't ahve any interest in supporting Java and would've dropped it at 1.1 if they had the choice.

    So now we are left with Java and .Net. MS has done some good things with .Net and Java has proven to be a great overall language. I see this shaping into a very bitter battle.

  14. jaykk macrumors 6502a

    Jan 5, 2002
    This is having more implications

    Java is an important part of corporate world now.. IBM has invested in its Java technology more than any other tech is IBM ( Java ) VS Microsoft (.NET) when it comes to Server technology.. If M$ ever cut the Java support from its platform, IBM and SUN, requires another platform.. IBM is really pushing for Linux..but Linux is far from a Desktop OS.. so I hope, if Apple can convince SUN and IBM that MAC OS X is the platform of choice in future...Sun is already using Apple written code in its JVM becuase apple's implimentation of JVM is superior in some aspects.

    Apple should take the initiative.go apple
  15. gopher macrumors 65816

    Mar 31, 2002
    Maryland, USA
    Microsoft already cut Java support from its platform. It isn't even included in Windows XP.
  16. drastik macrumors 6502a


    Apr 10, 2002
    This comes accross as a not so thinly veiled threat from Mcirosoft. They dropped Java, effectively, years ago, but did not make news with it untill it was a response to Suns court moves. "Mess with M$, and we'll screw ya." Thats the subtext here.
  17. Wry Cooter macrumors 6502

    Mar 10, 2002

    This is not the typical "oh you can come to the party where we will steal your thunder, block your access to most people, tie your shoelaces together..." game MS has been playing with Java, this is MS's "we are not even going to let your foot in the door, you are dead meat now.." move.
  18. tcmcam macrumors member

    Jun 14, 2002
    Oh, Cmon....

    Yes, MSFT is not pure as the driven snow.... But, neither is Sun. Let's face it, Sun has been playing all sorts of games with Java (who owns the standard, who is "really" allowed to make changes, etc).

    Basically, Sun has as much to blame as anyone else for this mess.

    Also, Sun can still play in Windows, it just won't ship in the box. Fine. Then Sun can be sure what version customers are getting.

    There's no law that says MSFT must include all technology in Windows. There's no law that says Java is the end of the world's problems. I don't understand why the government seems to think they "understand" Java's significance.
  19. spuncan macrumors 6502

    Jul 18, 2001
    This is one of the dumber things M$ has done since pretty much every programmer to be at this point is learning w/ C++ then Javaand if M$ does this alot of the websites out there will become incompatable w/ windows. Some times I just don't Gates at all. No make that always :D
  20. gbojim macrumors 6502

    Jan 30, 2002
    Missing the point

    I think a number of people are missing the significance of this announcement.

    The JVM included with Windows may only be at version 1.1, however, I can develop a web based app where the client portion can be downloaded and run on any client computer anywhere as long as I stick to the classes included with the v1.1 JVM. It's pretty easy to do that.

    However, MS is now saying they will ship no JVM at all with Windows meaning I have to get the client to download the JSRE software from Sun and install it. For those of you who have never done that, it is not automatic. You have to go through a full software install. Depending on the OS, it also requires a reboot.

    This is going to be a real problem for companies that have java based client/server apps and there are a lot of those.
  21. tcmcam macrumors member

    Jun 14, 2002
    Missing the bigger point - Where's the Java?

    Again, it would be great if MSFT would include this, but I still see that this ONLY impacts Java on the CLIENT.

    Java on the Server is safe (for Mac OS X, Sun Solaris, IBM Linux, etc).

    You guys keep talking about all these "Java web sites" that are going to break. Please, please show me the "great long list" of web sites that utilize Java for their client user interface? There are not many. This has NOTHING to do with MSFT's shenanigans, it has to do with performance, etc.

    It's a lot better to build a client interface in HTML (dynamic or not) that uses scripting, etc. You hit a much larger audience that way.

    Maybe I'm just not going to the correct sites, but I think Java on the client is a very small, insignificant community. Java on the server is where Java is succeeding. So again, If MSFT wants to dump Java support, let em. If customers get ticked off, MSFT will get the backlash (and maybe change their position in the future). But please, please don't turn government idiots into software architects thinking they know what should and should not be included in our software products. This just lets lobbyists (payed for by Sun, etc), make a stink about something and we waste all the taxpayer money on it.
  22. Wry Cooter macrumors 6502

    Mar 10, 2002
    Re: Missing the bigger point - Where's the Java?

    No you aren't. And what happens when a Winblows user goes to a site with a java applet running, and the applet does not run, because the Java code is not already on the client? Do they go, "Gee, where can I download that scrumpdillyishus Java?" No. They go to another site. And the servers stop using Java Applets.

    Mac Users have had plenty of this themselves over the years, not having the proper Java engine on board.. I still have to browse one site in Classic, because it does not work in OS X.

    Now you could argue this isn't MSFTs fault that Java doesn't have a working applet bla bla bla , but in a way, it most certainly and obviously is.
  23. gbojim macrumors 6502

    Jan 30, 2002
    Sorry - I should have made myself clearer. Most public web sites use javascript if they use any form of java at all. I am referring to corporate applications that are delivered primarily via http and use java applets running within the browser on the client side. There are thousands of these.

    It is correct that there are few full GUI apps running under java because the JVM - especially on Windows - does not have great performance.
  24. groupeone macrumors newbie

    Sep 29, 2001
    This might be significant

    Others have made some good comments here. But please know that Java has real importance at the Enterprise level. It's not just for Web sites; a number of industrial-strength applications are written in J2EE (Java 2 Enterprise Edition). My hope is that Apple will provide support for J2EE; I think this would open OS-X up to the Enterprise more, by allowing some very powerful applications and development environments to be supported. In turn, that would allow the Mac more access to corporate environments.

    Like it or not, Apple will have to take a stand on .NET as well. I hope that there will be support for the Mac in the .NET world. Otherwise, Apple stands the risk of missing an important train.

    To survive at the level of computing that Microsoft, Sun and Apple play in, you have to be pretty ruthless. It's not a pretty industry.
  25. Wry Cooter macrumors 6502

    Mar 10, 2002
    Re: This might be significant

    Or it may be abandoned, if the corporation wants to stay with Microsofts plan. Which excludes Java.

    Train or Trojan Horse?

    I have read that dot net for OS X is already in the works-- of course Microsoft wants the opportunity to shove it down our throats as well. But will we swallow?

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