Microsoft to develop Windows 7 in India

Discussion in 'Politics, Religion, Social Issues' started by Belly-laughs, Aug 6, 2007.

  1. Belly-laughs macrumors 6502a

    Belly-laughs

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    #1
  2. mkrishnan Moderator emeritus

    mkrishnan

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    Indian software engineering is outstanding. Every major in the software field is doing significant development in India, and India is an increasingly major market for the global sales of any major in the field. If it's a major market, why shouldn't there be development forces there? I don't understand why any decision to do global development in India needs to be met with instant xenophobia.
     
  3. Belly-laughs thread starter macrumors 6502a

    Belly-laughs

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  4. yg17 macrumors G5

    yg17

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    It's not xenophobia. It's one of the richest American companies who could pay American workers a decent salary and then some outsourcing the work to India to get off cheap and taking away jobs from Americans. When I buy something, I'd rather my money go to another American worker rather than some guy in India being taken advantage of by cheap American companies. It's bad enough that call centers are outsourced over there, and now this. So, for an American who's entering college and wants a job in IT when they graduate, what major shall they choose? All the jobs are being sent overseas. Now, it seems like the closest an American will ever get to having an IT job is cleaning out the toilets at the M$ headquarters.
     
  5. mkrishnan Moderator emeritus

    mkrishnan

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    There's been clear evidence time and time again that the decision to do software development in India isn't all about money. There's an excellent talent base there. The automotive industry, whether Japanese, Korean, European, or American, jointly designs cars in their major markets -- in Germany, in the US, in Japan, in Korea, etc. Korean firms do design in Europe. Japanese firms do design in the US. American firms do design in Japan. That's the way global industry works. It's insulting to say that there is no place for local development in a major market for a product. And India is a major market for software.

    I'm an American too. I was born here, and I've always lived here. And I respect the need for Americans to have good jobs. I'm just not in favor of protectionism as the way to do it. And thank you for making me feel justified in calling it xenophobia. That's exactly what it is.
     
  6. Belly-laughs thread starter macrumors 6502a

    Belly-laughs

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    It´s not outsourcing. MS has development offices in other countries too, India being one of them.

    I´m still curious about the xenophobia remark, though.
     
  7. mkrishnan Moderator emeritus

    mkrishnan

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    I'm sorry (to you specifically), I may have overreacted (to you specifically). What I interpreted as xenophobic was the idea that development in India was purely a way to offshore jobs and reduce costs, which doesn't seem to be what you think at all. I agree.
     
  8. Belly-laughs thread starter macrumors 6502a

    Belly-laughs

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    What I´m referring to is the cost of Vista – if Microsoft have better suited, more efficient engineers elsewhere, I have no problems with it.

    Edit: Sorry, crossed your post. Apology accepted ;)
     
  9. yg17 macrumors G5

    yg17

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    When the same talent can be found here at home, how is outsourcing anything but a cost cutting measure?
     
  10. Belly-laughs thread starter macrumors 6502a

    Belly-laughs

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    All the US talent works in Cupertino :D

    Microsoft is global. With their investments in development labs abroad, why would they not use the talent their nurturing there? Especially if it´s better and more cost effective?
     
  11. Yotabyte macrumors member

    Yotabyte

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    If the talent truly lies in India, then why not simply relocate some of them to the US to work with the Engineers at Redmond? Surely, they deserve to be paid the same as American Engineers too and be given the same rights and liberties... if this is all about talent... right?

    Microsoft software is bad enough. The last thing they need is for it to be designed in a dozen places all over the world and slapped together at the last moment.
     
  12. Aea macrumors 6502a

    Aea

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    Please, all the countries you've listed are first-world, you will hardly find anybody "xenophobic" towards cars developed in Germany, technology in Japan, etc. But you will find people "xenophobic" towards development in a country which is unstable, has no proven track record (focus on different elements in different fields) and has no economic benefit except for generating larger profits for large corporations. Same thing goes for China.

    I'd like to second the whole IT Field argument. I'm somebody with a lot of talent in the IT field who's majoring in Biology, I know WAY too many people who have lost or are in constant threat of losing their jobs because of this "talent," which conveniently works at a fraction of the price.
     
  13. Jasonbot macrumors 68020

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    lol, reminds me of that one Simpsons episode where springfield's power requirements are outsourced to India. I can just imagine Microsoft doing the same thing :p
     
  14. mrkramer macrumors 603

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    even if it is a cost cuttin measure, why shouldn't they if they want to, if you were wanting to be paid more than twice as much as another guy who could do your job equally well, do you think that you employer would keep you instead of hiring the guy who could do the same job for less? If the American workers want to be paid more then they need to be willing to only have the jobs that are unable to be done for less somewhere else.
     
  15. Belly-laughs thread starter macrumors 6502a

    Belly-laughs

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    It´s not as simple as it seems. Would you relocate to Norway for 3 years if your company told you to?

    A balance between talent and price. Taking advantage of lower cost areas is nothing new – and not a concept invented by MS. I´m not saying it´s right, just a fact of global business. Some workers win, some lose. The corporations win all the time.
     
  16. theBB macrumors 68020

    theBB

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    Then, write to your representatives in Washington DC to increase H-1B quotas. The whole annual quota was filled in one day this year. You cannot bring anybody to work here until October 2008, and only if the application of your prospective employee arrives at INS office on the first day and win the lottery if more than the allowed number arrive that day as seems likely for next year.


    So what? What is your solution? If we pass laws to stop buying goods or services from them, what makes you think they will keep on buying our stuff? You'll lose your job again once your company loses its customers and needs to reduce head count.

    In any case, I am yet to see a good engineer in electrical or computer fields unable to find a job at a lucrative salary. If you are good at what you do, you'll find a job. If you are only "so so" and think you are entitled to a job because of your "place of birth", then you might be right to be fearful. In any case, the salaries in this field overseas are increasing at much higher pace than here, so they can afford more of the stuff that we are good at. You know, everybody's boats are being lifted story...
     
  17. ambience macrumors member

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    #17
    It's as reasonable to assume that Microsoft is outsourcing to India because of India's programming talent as much as it is to assume other companies outsource manufacturing to China because of China's manufacturing talent. Lets face it, whether manufacturing in China or programming in India, it is very rarely being done to expand.

    Ask yourself these questions:

    Do companies outsource call centers to India because they are actually better than American call centers?

    Does Apple build their products in China because they are higher quality than if they were built in the US, Europe, or Japan?

    It is logical that American, European, and Japanese companies open centers and factories in China and India for those domestic markets, that would be expanding. Manufacturing goods in China and developing software in India that is then imported into the United States on a massive scale is simply exploitation of the low wages there. I don't care how anybody spins this but it is the truth, the low wages (which would be unlivable in the United States) are competing with American jobs. If we (as Americans) have to compete with China and India for jobs (including skilled jobs) we will have to accept a low salary in order to stay employed, the low salary will lead to a reduced standard of living for many Americans. Whether you are a programmer (a skilled job) or a simple assembly line worker, somebody in China and India can do it for peanuts. No American job is "safe" from outsourcing.

    Many say that Americans should be able to compete in a global economy, but lets not forget that most people that live in China and India are living in unimaginable poverty, we are talking about billions of people in poverty. A meager wage to people living in these countries is sufficient for them, competing with this meager wage is just not possible for an American (or European, Japanese, etc), you simply cannot live in a developed country making that little money.

    Some say that workers in countries like India and China will eventually get paid more as these countries become more developed (like Japan did), but this is also not true. People seem to forget that the Indian government isn't extremely stable and China is communist, China has fixed their currency to keep the cost of labor low, I see no evidence that either of these countries may ever see the standard of living of a developed country thus the labor will always be cheap for the foreseeable future. As the markets do grow in these countries, American companies will have to manufacture goods and provide services within those countries, thus these expanding markets only benefit the stockholders of the companies, not the American worker (read: most of the US).

    I'm sorry for going on and on, but it hurts to see anybody that is opposed to outsourcing their jobs called "xenophobic." I do not work in manufacturing, am getting an excellent education, just ran into a high paying career job that is in a management position, and I may never have to worry about my job being outsourced. Maybe it is ignorance on my part, but I feel most Americans don't care about protecting their neighbor's jobs and future.
     
  18. yg17 macrumors G5

    yg17

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    #18

    But is it right for American companies to exploit the cheap labor overseas and screw over the economy at home just for the sake of saving some money? Sure, they may have a reason for it, but it doesn't make it right.
     
  19. Music_Producer macrumors 68000

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    You mean the American consumers aren't driving any of this? Consumers don't care if a t-shirt is made in china.. if the price is right, they'll be happy to buy it. You can't stop globalization.. and I find all this whining about 'losing jobs to another country' unjustified.

    If Americans complain that their jobs are going to India, you'll find Indians complaining that their jobs are going to China (anything from shoes to clothing - local Indian villages are hit extremely hard because of this) Is it right for the local economy? No. But it's going to happen - you can't stop it.. you need to adapt.. or risk being wiped out.

    If I decide to manufacture a laptop, and find that it costs me $1200 to make it in the US, and $450 to make it in China, you tell me where I would go..

    In this global marketplace, you can't afford to be complacent.
     
  20. jsw Moderator emeritus

    jsw

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    #20
    If the talent base is sufficiently good and the wages are significantly less, Microsoft - and any publicly owned company - is obligated to pursue options that reduce the cost of business.

    If American workers want to keep their jobs, they need to provide a reason to their employers beyond "you should pay us more because we're Americans".
     
  21. obeygiant macrumors 68040

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  22. theBB macrumors 68020

    theBB

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    First off, I don't think they are screwing anything. The last time I checked the unemployment rate was near historic lows.

    Think about it this way. If American company does not move its operations there, then a cheaper Indian or Chinese company will eventually come along that will take away its marketshare. Either way, these Indian engineers will earn a living and contribute to some company.

    In any case, why is it right for a consumer to shop at Wal-Mart for price or for that matter, choose a Japanese car for reliability? What is the difference?
     
  23. cleanup macrumors 68030

    cleanup

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    Well said.

    Then again, it seems like outsourcing and especially foreign manufacturing has its pitfalls. One point: pollution. China's pollution in its manufacturing sector is essentially America's pollution. You've just outsourced it. :p And now China has surpassed America as the #1 greenhouse gas emitter.

    So, China got loads of business, but also got plenty of problems to go with it, probably just another reason in addition to cost and efficiency as to why America outsources everything. It's convenient and you haven't got to clean up the mess that results.
     

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