Middle East countries prove Obama right, McCain wrong

Discussion in 'Politics, Religion, Social Issues' started by Thomas Veil, May 22, 2008.

  1. Thomas Veil macrumors 68020

    Thomas Veil

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    #1
    Oh, the Obama people are gonna have fun with this. Bush and McCain have been mocking Obama's supposed "naivete", saying that it is not good policy to talk to your enemies.

    Well...

    Apparently if you're not gonna take part in Middle East negotiations, they're gonna do it for themselves.

    Another way Bush (and by extension McCain) have abdicated our authority as a superpower. And they made Obama look pretty smart in the bargain.
     
  2. leekohler macrumors G5

    leekohler

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    #2
    Whoa- that's crazy. How much do you wanna bet that Bush tries to take credit somehow? Although- the Hezbollah thing is a little scary.
     
  3. Thomas Veil thread starter macrumors 68020

    Thomas Veil

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    Well, we'll never know, but maybe if the Bush administration hadn't taken such a hard line itself and had participated in talks, it could have come up with a somewhat different outcome.

    If anything, Bush's recklessness and intractability has probably convinced a lot of Middle East nations that they'd rather work things out themselves than deal with the drunken, stampeding elephant that is the Bush administration.
     
  4. Thanatoast macrumors 6502a

    Thanatoast

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    #4
    This peace process will soon be derailed by Bush bombing Iran. Then he gets to keep his perpetual war. He really *is* trying to unite the Middle East - against us. Then we have a reason to continue paying $750,000,000,000/year for our military.
     
  5. leekohler macrumors G5

    leekohler

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    #5
    He may very well use the Hezbollah thing as evidence that the ME is uniting against us. I wouldn't be surprised one bit.
     
  6. Antares macrumors 68000

    Antares

    #6
    Middle East politics is an extremely complex thing. I look forward to a time when we will no longer need to be concerned with that region. What everyone needs to keep in mind is that there are no black and white rules that explicitly state when you do or don't talk to nations or leaders. Sure it's a nice idea to be all buddy buddy with leaders of rogue nations. However, there are consequences that need to be considered.

    I just find it amusing that Obama supporters are twisting things to make it seem like he's right. At least take McCain out of the thread title as many Democrats agree that Obama's stance on international politics with rogue nations is wrong...though the Democrats put it more lightly as to not harm Obama politically while the Republicans obviously are more extreme with their criticism to try and harm him.

    Even though I am obviously anti-Obama, I try to look at things objectively.

    Why does the US have to be the negotiator or mediator? Can't sovereign nations deal with things themselves? Unless there is a real need for the US to help, I say we butt out and let them deal with it themselves. But we're too entrenched there because of the oil for ANY president to leave them all alone. Not Obama, not McCain, not Hillary.....
     
  7. Peace macrumors P6

    Peace

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    #7
    Ever heard of Iraq ?
     
  8. Thomas Veil thread starter macrumors 68020

    Thomas Veil

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    #8
    Why take McCain out of the thread title? He's made no bones about the fact that he believes you do not talk to enemies. Turkey, Israel, Syria, Lebanon, Quatar and Hezbollah have shown that sometimes you do talk to your enemies.

    As far as Obama goes, sure, Hillary thinks he's wrong, but people like Howard Baker III, Chuck Hagel and Colin Powell think Bush and McCain are wrong.

    And let's not forget that the U.S. has a long history of meeting with our then-biggest enemy, the Soviets.

    The U.S. doesn't have to be a mediator. But no one in their right mind would argue that third parties are more likely to have their interests met by sitting on the sidelines rather than by participating.
     
  9. Antares macrumors 68000

    Antares

    #9
    What about it? We're responsible. We can't just abandon it flat out.
     
  10. Thomas Veil thread starter macrumors 68020

    Thomas Veil

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    #10
    I believe his point was that we got stuck our nose into that situation without needing to.
     
  11. SMM macrumors 65816

    SMM

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    #11
    Some US foreign aid is freely given, without any strings attached. However, if it is by the government, it would be for humanity purposes, disaster relief for example. But, most of it is from private charities.

    When the government gives military aid (hardware or technical services), it comes with the condition that the recipient will promote US policies. Therefore, we want to be involved in anything that could run counter to those. This is obviously a broad generalization and will not apply to every case.
     
  12. zap2 macrumors 604

    zap2

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    #12
    He is. His plan, talk with leaders when they start to show push for real improvement, not this "we'll cut off communication from you, and I bet you'll come to our side real soon!"

    Wait, what do those two fact have to do with each other? McCain is wrong, because his policy are ones which have failed, point-blank, over the past 8 years. Dems agreeing with McCain, which I see little proof of, wouldn't change that fact.


    Yea....atleast you'll say it. Some people refuse to do that much
     
  13. yojitani macrumors 68000

    yojitani

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    #13
    I personally find this the most attractive of Obama's politics. I'm not sure what harm people like those linked to in your sig. really find in talking to nations that some agency has decided is 'rogue'. People seem to forget the other lesson of Iraq (and Libya if you want to go back) is sanctions don't work and in fact are inhuman. Obama's is the most intelligent international policy I've seen from a presidential nominee. It'd be fantastic if the US could engage Hezbollah and Hamas too, but that wouldn't even happen under Obama


    This is a huge question. One reason is simply because if the US doesn't someone else will. That might sound great to isolationists until foreign interests start getting cut off. The US has played such a large role as mediator etc. since WW2 because of economic interests, not just oil. Stability is usually in the US's better economic interests... That's why typically the US shows up in hotspots where there's money to be made, and only sends a nasty message to places where there's less at stake. Of course, this is a huge generalization.

    I've got to ask about that site you've got linked in your sig, stop obama?. Fair enough, there's plenty to dislike about the guy, but the stuff listed on the site is kind of childish. Muslim family? Rev. Wright? It sounds like the kind of mentality of my neighbor who thinks Obama might start a war against white people:confused:. Past the ridicule here, what is it that actually bothers people (like you I guess since you've linked to it) about Obama? What is it about Obama that you are actually afraid of? Reading that website, one might forget that he is just a Washington tool like the best of them.
     
  14. SMM macrumors 65816

    SMM

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    #14
    Why? This is an ancient region with very smart people. Only Iraq can solve Iraq's internal problems. We have done nothing but kill hundreds of thousands of people, destroy much of their infrastructure, and generally make a mess of everything we touch. The vast majority of the World, and among Americans, believe we are in Iraq to protect our interests. I agree with the majority. If we leave Iraq, remove any remaining sanctions, they will be able to work things out for themselves. The Bush administration is completely out of depth in understanding the people of Iraq; their culture, religion and history.

    I was in Vietnam when I was 19. I was there for 20 months. Whenever I was rotated back to Binh Thuy, which was a fairly secure area, I would spend my nights at my friend Leim's house. In the evenings, I would sit up with the family, watching TV (absolutely nothing like American), and then we would go out in the garden and talk. For me, Vietnam was a vast array of experiences, ranging from horror to love. But, the one dominate feeling was one of adventure and learning.

    Over those 20 months, Leim taught me the history of his Country in micro detail. Night after night, after night, Leim and I would talk and I began to understand the war from the Vietnamese perspective. Leim explained that Vietnam had been engaged in a war for independence for centuries. They had been conquered and enslaved by the Siamese Empire, China, the Mongols, China (again), France, Japan and France (again). After the French were defeated, America comes blundering in.

    The Vietnamese people knew they were very close to achieving the freedom they had sought, and died trying to achieve, for hundreds of years. Leim told me that the fight for independence went back for so many generations, and was so entrenched in the Vietnamese, Leim told me that it was never going to be possible to change this. For every VC killed, a new one would pick up a rifle. An American General, when asked why we were unable to make significant progress, replied, "What do you want us to do, level every city in Vietnam, starting with Saigon?" He was a man who understood the problem.

    The reason I spent so much time explaining this, is because I see the a very similar relationship with how we are blundering blindly in Iraq. We are trying to 'force-feed' our fantasy, on how Iraq should adopt to the US 'vision' we have for them. However, the Iraqi's perception is much different than ours. They understand the issues and we are the ones that do not. They have survived and prospered for over two millennia. I am pretty sure, if we departed, and let them sort thing out, they would be successful.

    But then, we are really there to protect our interests, aren't we?
     
  15. Thomas Veil thread starter macrumors 68020

    Thomas Veil

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    #15
    Another article that bolsters this point:

     
  16. solvs macrumors 603

    solvs

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    #16
    For the record, no legitimate plan says we will. The most extreme I've seen from those who actually have a chance to do much about it is a slow, phased, withdrawal. Usually over about a 16 month period. Saying anyone wants to pull out immediately is a strawman used by those who's only plans are to keep doing what we're doing now, which is not working, despite everything said about the surge (which didn't do anything it was supposed to, and just barely brought violence back down to where it was, and temporarily at that). The only people I know even saying it were Ron Paul and Dennis Kucinich, and even they knew you couldn't just pull out and that was that. As opposed to more of the same, a slow a phased withdrawal seems like a good idea. What are they going to do, continue to fight the way they already are? Maybe we should focus more on the 'stans, where the real terrorists are and give the Iraqis what they need rather than trying to force more on them that they don't want. If we were actually fixing their country, I would give you your point, but we aren't. All evidence points to the fact that we, especially our contractors, are actually still making things worse, and continue to do so.

    I'm not impressed with everything Obama is pushing, I've said as much and why many times here, but McCain has taken on Bush's failed policies, and that's lost my support completely.
     

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