MISC thoughts about apple-intel

[fetusuprising]

I am a recent convert. I have been a PC user since 1992 (I was 8 when I got my first 386-based IBM clone... and yes my parents raised me to be a nerd).

Last May, only a couple of months ago, after nearly committing suicide (unfortunately not kidding) due to Avid on Windows crashing repeadly on my first feature legnth film (the bugs were so severe that the software engineers at Boris and Avid began warring over who's fault this was), I decided to move to mac because NOTHING could be worse than what I went through.

But before I made the leap, I wanted to get used to used to the Mac universe. I am a very cautious buyer. I didn't buy it until I checked Apple's 10-q and 10-K. Despite only having a minor (blue state) share, they make about 1/6th the money of microsoft, a company much larger, and with an astronomical monopoly. This gave me confidence I wasn't investing a premium into a dying platform.

I went into the experience with the typical PC-user notion that macs are slow, for idiots, and over priced. Well, they are a tad over priced, but if you paid for the same quality in a PC, you'd pay the same or more. It's simply that Apple does not offer budget alternatives based on design. They cut the corners for their budget computers in the speed/internals, rather than the quality. In the PC world you can get an 800$ laptop with the same specs as a 1900$ laptop, but the quality is night and day. This was foriegn to me, but it made sense after thinking it through.

Then of course I got my 12" powerbook and was amazed at the design and quality. simply fantastic. Also, the nerd in me was challenged much more than in windows. With OSX being unix-like based the terminal let me explore all of the things I thought I'd be missing.

The package system is fantastic for programs. I hate scattering parts of software every which way.

It's simply computing 10 years ahead of the norm.

When I was 14 and windows 95 just came out, I was working doing diagnostics and repair at a small shop in Seattle. The "genius" of the group was a nice guy, but he raged everyone by proclaiming that windows 95 is the same or lesser than the technology apple had in 1985. So I guess the 10 year curve is about right.

So now that I've come into this new world, apple pulls the rug out from under me (and everyone else) by switching to intel.

Now we're left with more questions than we're capable of pondering.

How will they control piracy? I have Tiger running on my HP laptop (which was very well made, but a piece of crap compared to my powerbook). I know, I know it's illegal, but I ran it as a test. I don't intent to use it as it is not feasible to use. It runs SO slowly. I'd compare it to the first mac mini with 256 megs of ram, despite the fact the laptop has a 2.8ghz proc, and 512 megs of ram, and a 533mhz bus... all components supposedly faster than the powerbook.

Now, OS X will not ship for computers other than those apple builds. And they do not include drivers for components other than those included on Apple computers. Getting OS X drivers for other compentents will only interest the geek-minority crowd. So it shouldn't be a problem for them. Even without the TPM chip, the limited compatibility should minimize piracy.

What I don't like are these rumors that apple will liscence their software; so those of us who pay their premium are stuck in the dust.

I don't know. Somebody please help me put some perspective on this. I am completely dependant on computers for both my work, and my leisure (and spell checking... which I haven't done on this post). I DO NOT want to go back to Windows. The thought is beyond depressing. And now the beacon that made me happy, apple, seems to have a precarious future, albeit a likely promising one.

Sorry for the long post, but you didn't have to read it

Take care,

- Alex

 

[Chundles]

I am a recent convert. I have been a PC user since 1992 (I was 8 when I got my first 386-based IBM clone... and yes my parents raised me to be a nerd).

Last May, only a couple of months ago, after nearly committing suicide (unfortunately not kidding) due to Avid on Windows crashing repeadly on my first feature legnth film (the bugs were so severe that the software engineers at Boris and Avid began warring over who's fault this was), I decided to move to mac because NOTHING could be worse than what I went through.

But before I made the leap, I wanted to get used to used to the Mac universe. I am a very cautious buyer. I didn't buy it until I checked Apple's 10-q and 10-K. Despite only having a minor (blue state) share, they make about 1/6th the money of microsoft, a company much larger, and with an astronomical monopoly. This gave me confidence I wasn't investing a premium into a dying platform.

I went into the experience with the typical PC-user notion that macs are slow, for idiots, and over priced. Well, they are a tad over priced, but if you paid for the same quality in a PC, you'd pay the same or more. It's simply that Apple does not offer budget alternatives based on design. They cut the corners for their budget computers in the speed/internals, rather than the quality. In the PC world you can get an 800$ laptop with the same specs as a 1900$ laptop, but the quality is night and day. This was foriegn to me, but it made sense after thinking it through.

Then of course I got my 12" powerbook and was amazed at the design and quality. simply fantastic. Also, the nerd in me was challenged much more than in windows. With OSX being unix-like based the terminal let me explore all of the things I thought I'd be missing.

The package system is fantastic for programs. I hate scattering parts of software every which way.

It's simply computing 10 years ahead of the norm.

When I was 14 and windows 95 just came out, I was working doing diagnostics and repair at a small shop in Seattle. The "genius" of the group was a nice guy, but he raged everyone by proclaiming that windows 95 is the same or lesser than the technology apple had in 1985. So I guess the 10 year curve is about right.

So now that I've come into this new world, apple pulls the rug out from under me (and everyone else) by switching to intel.

Now we're left with more questions than we're capable of pondering.

How will they control piracy? I have Tiger running on my HP laptop (which was very well made, but a piece of crap compared to my powerbook). I know, I know it's illegal, but I ran it as a test. I don't intent to use it as it is not feasible to use. It runs SO slowly. I'd compare it to the first mac mini with 256 megs of ram, despite the fact the laptop has a 2.8ghz proc, and 512 megs of ram, and a 533mhz bus... all components supposedly faster than the powerbook.

Now, OS X will not ship for computers other than those apple builds. And they do not include drivers for components other than those included on Apple computers. Getting OS X drivers for other compentents will only interest the geek-minority crowd. So it shouldn't be a problem for them. Even without the TPM chip, the limited compatibility should minimize piracy.

What I don't like are these rumors that apple will liscence their software; so those of us who pay their premium are stuck in the dust.

I don't know. Somebody please help me put some perspective on this. I am completely dependant on computers for both my work, and my leisure (and spell checking... which I haven't done on this post). I DO NOT want to go back to Windows. The thought is beyond depressing. And now the beacon that made me happy, apple, seems to have a precarious future, albeit a likely promising one.

Sorry for the long post, but you didn't have to read it

Take care,

- Alex

You do realise that Apple have a brain in their head and aren't going to make OS X run slowly on an Intel processor, who cares what's under the hood, as long as it's running Mac OS I'm happy.

The version of Tiger you have running on your HP is simply the operating system for the Developer Kits, when they release Intel Macs the OS is going to be very tightly bound to the Mac platform, whether by using distinct BIOS or even a DRM chip, it's going to be like pulling teeth to get anything off the Mac and onto run of the mill PC's.

Stop worrying, take a deep breath, you'll be fine, so strap yourself in and get ready for a great ride.

 

[GroundLoop]

What I don't like are these rumors that apple will liscence their software; so those of us who pay their premium are stuck in the dust.

This is never going to happen. Just take a look at Apple's financial reports. What percentage of their business comes from selling computer hardware? 60%? Apple would never make such a move again (remember the Attack of the Clones?)

No need to worry about that rumor.

Hickman

 

[fetusuprising]

I understand all of this...

Apple does have a brain, but they've made some bad moves before. And maybe it will be like pulling teeth to get it to run on a blank-box...

I think I put my finger on what I'm so unsettled about:

Right now I paid a premium for the MAC/POWERPC platform. A special proprietary differentiated platform. If the guts of a mac are going to be the same as the guts of an HP or Dell, I'm essentially paying a hefty premium for aluminum, and OS X. Well, OS X is an operating system. One person in the forums said that the new computers will essentially be one big dongle for OS X. I think I agree; unless they lower their prices to comparable levels of PC manufacturers = for =, then there's going to be some bad blood amongst even the loyalists (of which I am now one). Now if they do that, and make sure their design and computers are WAY beyond the times, there shouldn't be a problem. But they're going to have to "make up" for the fact that their insides are going to be run-of the mill/standard parts.

On another subject, I really miss being able to build my own box. It's a lot of fun, and I like customizing my case, and knowing where everything is. I used to run a system without a box, on a wooden desk, with no on-button. You needed a screwdriver to short the thing to turn on. We called it the fire-hazard. I would never be able to do something like that with a Mac.

Maybe it'll be amazing, though. My guess is that they'll have another trick up their sleve. They wouldn't move to the "enemy" intel, without having something very special behind it.

Correct?

 

[crazzyeddie]

With Jobs at the wheel, Apple will never license their software to other companies.

 

[generik]

Actually I'd rather they "sorta" have pirated copies of OSX floating around in the market.

Why?

The cheap people who pirate OSX will probably not buy OSX on a mac anyway.
People still buy macs for the same reasons.. quality.

However with more people using macs (albeit illegally), people will actually start talking more and more about MacOS, and as a platform, MacOS will actually slowly gain more mindshare and acceptance as compared to now.

It will be a bloodless revolution, the fine day when OSX-x86 is actually unveiled, will be the day when Microsoft is going down.

Microsft knows it is running out of juice in terms of innovation, that is why it is trying to improve the heck out of Vista, but seems like all that effort is only gonna bring us just that, a "Vista". "Good view", heh, hope Balmer enjoys the view out of his office, it won't be long now

Then again MS will be around for a very long time still, but ultimately with Linux snipping at it on the server front, and OSX chewing at it on the desktop front, Windows jolly well should learn to play nice and embrace actual standards or get left in the dust.

Or perhaps they can threaten to pull Office from the Mac platform as some hypothesized, that is going to be so hilarious when everyone just start using OpenOffice and PDF files

OpenOffice 2.0 is pretty good, it is still unpolished in some areas, but for all intents and purposes it is almost like Office 2003.

 

[fetusuprising]

Football season for microsoft is not over

Vista will fall flat on its ass, and have a slow adoption rate, just like XP.

But microsoft is never going away. They have contracts with major companies for long term liscencing (sorry no spell checker... I'm on my PC. MS brings in 30 billion a year. 11 billion comes from enterprise/corporate sales for IT oriented solutions: this include MS Office! 11 billion comes from operating systems. 4 billion (possibly a tad less) comes from technical support fees and other misc revenue. The rest comes from income from investments.

The margins on Office are significantly higher than for OSes.

If tomorrow OSX were the standard... let's say 90% marketshare... MS would make MORE money. The reason is because 70 - 90% of mac users use office (depending on the market). Also, as soon as Apple stock goes up, microsoft would buy more and share the gains. Mac taking more marketshare would be the best thing to happen to microsoft since they made their first deal with IBM for DOS. However, a blood feud between Jobs and Gates still exists.

I've heard that Jobs is not a good guy all of the time, but I live in Seattle, and my mother went to Lakeside High with Gates; they talk at the reunions (which he hosts at his godforsakenly huge house), and he is not a nice guy. He is a pretentious insecure little twit who got lucky. But he's an opportunist. Not an idealist. Therefore, he will always make more money than Jobs.

I love my mac. I've owned 11 PC laptops since I was... actually 11, and none gave me the same thrill as my powerbook. They are amazing computers, and the operating system is the best in the world (for 98% of people... some need super computers, or linux). I'm a paranoid, and I'm waiting for the other shoe to drop. But I think I've solved my inner conflict about the situation. Whatever rut Apple digs, Microsoft will bail them out (remember 1998?), and intel could very well prove to be specatular.

The only lingering thing, is that they MUST convince the public that the synergy of THEIR OS with THEIR computers is what makes a mac the special thing it is. In other words, they must differentiate the innards of their hardware just enough to make the experience transcendant on both the hardware AND software level. They cannot release products with the same insides as DELL, and say You Are Buying A Supercomputer, ONLY FROM APPLE! See what I'm getting at?

Intel is not going to give Apple preferential treatment. How else can they raise the hardware bar?

Here are a couple of thoughts: 1. They have that RAM deal with Samsung. They could cram twice as much standard ram into their computers as a standard PC. 2. There's an Intel TPM chip, I forgot the name. I did my best to look it up, but I couldn't find it again... it's speculation anyway, but they have a TPM chip, that, beyond controlling software usage, detects malicous behavoir running in the CPU, and can idle it or at least warn you. This could be a selling point. 3. Unlikely, higher class chips ONLY for Apple... fat chance.
4. optimization of the x86 platform far beyond a wintel PC. If Intel would work with Apple, even with a small team, and literally exploit EVERY single ounce of power. With an agressive campaign, they could convince people that the same innerds run x-times faster in real world apps than on wintel. This is very possible. the Pentium 4 has over 5 independant instruction sets, all unused by windows XP. Vista may use them, but Apple will surely use them better. Look how much apple got out of altivec. Without it, the OS runs 3x slower. Right now intel chips are shipped to companies as straight up commodities. Windows runs without exploiting their technology (nor AMD's technology), and PC manufacturers do very little to help. The Chipset drivers help alittle, but it needs to be built into the OS.

Apple needs to convince us that their hardware has something that no one else has, or can build on their own; and I'm not talking about DRM. They need a secret weapon pure and simple, and knowing them, I bet they have it, and we'll see it in June. God, I can't wait for the day they see 10 percent marketshare!

Sorry for the long post, but I'm eager to hear what you guys think.

 

[MisterMe]

....

Right now I paid a premium for the MAC/POWERPC platform. A special proprietary differentiated platform...

Apple's PowerPC-based Macintoshes are not based on a proprietary platform. They are based on an open published standard. It is Apple's MacOS X EULA that prevents the development of Mac clones, not its hardware designs.

 

[fetusuprising]

I like your accuracy, and you are technically accurate, but you are de facto-wrong.

How many companies are offering PowerPC based computers you can buy at this time?

 

[jadekitty24]

I thought the switch to intel was only a processor thing. What does this have to do with the OS or the OS becoming obsolete? And just because you bought a mac doesn't mean you have to stop building your own pc's. If you like it and it's fun and you can afford to you can be part of both worlds. And by the way, I am wicked impressed with the thought and research you put into your decision to buy a powerbook.

 

[fetusuprising]

I thought the switch to intel was only a processor thing. What does this have to do with the OS or the OS becoming obsolete? And just because you bought a mac doesn't mean you have to stop building your own pc's. If you like it and it's fun and you can afford to you can be part of both worlds. And by the way, I am wicked impressed with the thought and research you put into your decision to buy a powerbook.

I have no gripes with the OS; of course, the OS will remain superior. And, yes, that is a good philosophy that I can build my own comps. I guess the problem is that I wouldn't want them because XP is crap. I guess I could run Linux. I'd just love to be able to build my own Mac box is all. I think they should give you the option of buying your components as a package to be assembled by yourself, however, void your warranty. I think that would be a good model.

BTW, I am humbled by your compliment, but it's simply the result of being the son of a stock broker. The financial clan never puts any amount of money in anything until its be measured in every way possible; even if it is risky, you must know the exact risk, and if you can't find out, don't buy it!

 

[jadekitty24]

I completely agree with you. I have never built my own computer, but have always wanted to (since I was introduced to the Mac world). That need to build my own computer did not come about until I stumbled upon the Macintosh world. Before I "switched" to Macs, I detested computing, and thought it was just more head-ache that it was worth. Until my first Mac. I would love to custom build my own Mac. To the T. I see models I'm somewhat interested in, but the customizing of your own options in each macintosh is somewhat more limited than pc's. In the end I don't go through with the purchase because it isn't "exactly" what I want. Still, I am a deadfast Mac fan that will never again want to be completely immersed in the pc world. I prefer mac but wistfully wish for more leeway in getting the perfect mac.

 

[fetusuprising]

I completely agree with you. I have never built my own computer, but have always wanted to (since I was introduced to the Mac world). That need to build my own computer did not come about until I stumbled upon the Macintosh world. Before I "switched" to Macs, I detested computing, and thought it was just more head-ache that it was worth. Until my first Mac. I would love to custom build my own Mac. To the T. I see models I'm somewhat interested in, but the customizing of your own options in each macintosh is somewhat more limited than pc's. In the end I don't go through with the purchase because it isn't "exactly" what I want. Still, I am a deadfast Mac fan that will never again want to be completely immersed in the pc world. I prefer mac but wistfully wish for more leeway in getting the perfect mac.

Yep. That's the thing. That's how they get you! I love my mac more than any computer I've ever owned. I NEVER want to go back to windows (I have to use a windows pc for some things, like games etc.). But not being able to build is that nagging little thing.

I can justify a powerbook, because no one lets you build your own laptop. (And I sure am glad I got my 12" because as of January it looks like they are going to drop it.) But a box... well... in 13 years of computing, I've never bought a prebuilt box. I'm in video, so I may need the power of a desktop... I don't know if I can go through with it.

ALTHOUGH: after writing that last sentance, I looked up mac parts, and found that you can buy most parts individually! They're not cheap, and you won't really save any money, but I found a website that let you buy replacement G5 procs, and Mobos. As long as they offer replacement Mobos for the Intel macs (with TPM), you could design your own computer! I think this could work! And once it's x86, you can use generic parts aside from the mobo! Hey Jade, I think I'm happy again!

 

[jadekitty24]

Yep. That's the thing. That's how they get you! I love my mac more than any computer I've ever owned. I NEVER want to go back to windows (I have to use a windows pc for some things, like games etc.). But not being able to build is that nagging little thing.

I can justify a powerbook, because no one lets you build your own laptop. (And I sure am glad I got my 12" because as of January it looks like they are going to drop it.) But a box... well... in 13 years of computing, I've never bought a prebuilt box. I'm in video, so I may need the power of a desktop... I don't know if I can go through with it.

ALTHOUGH: after writing that last sentance, I looked up mac parts, and found that you can buy most parts individually! They're not cheap, and you won't really save any money, but I found a website that let you buy replacement G5 procs, and Mobos. As long as they offer replacement Mobos for the Intel macs (with TPM), you could design your own computer! I think this could work! And once it's x86, you can use generic parts aside from the mobo! Hey Jade, I think I'm happy again!

Glad your happy...I'm not...my iBook just DIED!! So I guess that means I will be looking for a new one sometime next year. They're getting rid of the 12" Powerbooks? That was one of my first choices. Damn...oh well! At least I still have my peecee so I can log in to MacRumors