More Religious Nuttery

Discussion in 'Politics, Religion, Social Issues' started by vrDrew, Apr 17, 2015.

  1. vrDrew, Apr 17, 2015
    Last edited: Apr 17, 2015

    vrDrew macrumors 65816

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    #1
    No: Its not radical Muslim extremists beheading people. Its not born-again Christians refusing to bake gay wedding cakes.

    This time its Ultra-Orthodox Jews refusing to sit next to women on airplanes. (Independent UK link for non NY Times subscribers)

    It seems to me this is part of a growing trend. And one I think we all need to put a stop to.

    IMHO religious liberty means being able to worship in the way you see fit in your private life. Go to church/temple/mosque on your own time, on your own schedule.

    But once you venture out into the wider world - you need to play by the rules the rest of us follow. If your Ultra-Orthodox faith literally means you can't sit next to women, you need to make your own arrangements (take a boat, charter a private flight) - or stay home.

    As a side note, I think it makes illuminating reading to take a look at a little handbook put out by Pennsylvania's Amish community for operating horse-drawn buggies on public roads:

    I think a lot of these religious fanatics (or all the major denominations) could learn something from that sentiment.
     
  2. rdowns macrumors Penryn

    rdowns

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    #2
    I've witnessed it. Used to fly to Denver every 3 weeks and a lot of Orthodox Jews fly that route. I was asked to change my seat as one guy didn't want to sit next to a woman. I declined as I paid extra for my seat with more leg room and was an aisle seat as I prefer. Good luck getting me to move to a middle seat. I also refused because Orthodox Jews practice some medieval bathing habits and smell.

    The ******* has the nerve to insist on speaking to the Captain. Captain came back and since the guy decided to get loud, so did I. Said loud enough for all to hear why I wouldn't change and added that their kids are always unruly on flights. Had 2 passengers buy me drinks on the flight.
     
  3. FieldingMellish Suspended

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    #3
    Religion is in a clash with a world gone haywire and a 24-hours news source with some axes to grind. Does the Times still have that tagline, “All the news that’s fit to print?”
     
  4. caesarp, Apr 17, 2015
    Last edited: Apr 17, 2015

    caesarp macrumors 6502a

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    #4
    Agreed 100%. This is no different than Hobby Lobby or the Indiana law, where people want to engage with the public on their personal religious terms. In your house and church, do what you want. But don't use your crazy myths to effect the rest of us in the public sphere. They can buy the whole row of seats or shut the heck up.

    And coming from a jewish family, I consider myself culturally jewish (not religious). This stuff makes all jews look bad. I think orthodox anything or fundamental anything is bad.

    Further, why is the opposite view not given the same weight. My "religion" (the religion of life) prohibits me from being sexist or condoning sexism. Therefore, I can't abide by your request to switch seats. For some reason, the OPPOSITE view of the supposed religious view is never given the same weight.

    For example, I have relatives who keep kosher. When we get together with them (not at their house, but another relative's house), they insist that the food be kosher. I don't eat kosher food and don't want to -- so why should I have to abide by that? Isn't it my RULE that I don't eat kosher? Why does the person with the more restrictive rule win out?
     
  5. Meister Suspended

    Meister

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    #5
    I would buy you a drink , too.
     
  6. D.T. macrumors 603

    D.T.

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    #6
    From the article:

    I'd request an air marshal to cart his ass off the plane.

    If I just decided I wasn't going to sit in my seat because the adjacent passenger was - for example - of a particular sexual orientation that conflicted with my "belief system", you can _bet_ that's what would happen to me.
     
  7. caesarp macrumors 6502a

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    #7
    Next time, just say its against your religion to condone sexism or sexist behavior. Or its against your religion to move your seat. Whatever, just make up some kooky religious rule that quashes the other kooky rule. You shouldn't have to give any other reason if the other person doesn't have to.
     
  8. aaronvan Suspended

    aaronvan

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    #8
    I usually eat Mexican before I fly. Don't sit next to me, either.
     
  9. obeygiant macrumors 68040

    obeygiant

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    #9
    link

    They're right when they say Kim is a pornographic symbol. In general I can see why they think that even though the images of Kim don't bother me.

    [​IMG]
     
  10. D.T. macrumors 603

    D.T.

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    #10
    Lord Zardoz says I must sit in First Class!

    DO NOT OPRESS MY BELIEFS!

    So you're the guy. Well, maybe next time skip the second order of refried beans ...

    :D
     
  11. I7guy macrumors G5

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    #11
    Saying this no different than hobby lobby smacks of religious intolerance. A thought like that makes Jews looks bad unfortunately. This is way different than hobby lobby and this post does a discredit to say such a thing.

    I understand the why of this, the execution may have been a bit flawed.
     
  12. hulugu macrumors 68000

    hulugu

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    #12
    If someone believes so strongly, they should get their own damn airplane.
     
  13. APlotdevice macrumors 68040

    APlotdevice

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    #13
    This sort of thing is the reason I've always felt uncomfortable around the Orthodox.
     
  14. caesarp, Apr 17, 2015
    Last edited: Apr 17, 2015

    caesarp macrumors 6502a

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    #14
    Its exactly the same as hobby lobby. Some corporate exec who owns hobby lobby wants to use his personal religious beliefs to push them on others and create an exception for himself when dealing with the public. I don't like abortion, so hey, my corporation's healthcare ain't gonna provide for certain things I think are related to abortion. I don't care what the rules are for every corporation that is not a religious entity, I want special treatment regardless.

    So the same jackass gets on a plane and says, I don't care about the rules for everyone else or these seat number thingies, I don't like sitting next to women as its against my personal religious beliefs.

    At the end of the day, its the same religious nuts, figuring that they can use their whacko rules to engage with the rest of us. I tolerate religion if it keeps it arcane rules and ideas in the church or home or mosque, where they belong -- and not bring them out to the public sphere.

    That's not religious intolerance. That's living in a society. We can't just allow people's crazy personal rules to determine how we operate in public. What if I had a personal religious rule that required me to stand within 1 inch of you, staring in your eyeballs (yet never touching you). Should I be allowed to invade your personal space - hey my religion requires it. See how silly religious rules are when you try and make them operate around others who aren't part of that religion?

    In your religious community while amongst your cohorts, fine do what you want. Talk to snakes, drink blood, make women lick your boots, I don't care. Just don't expect to be able to do all your nonsense in the public realm. Is the word "religion" special. Does that mean you can do whatever you want? What if you say "cult" instead of religion? There is nothing about the word religion or religious that should allow anyone special treatment.

    Hobby Lobby owners are just as bad as the orthodox jews, if not worse. At least the jews didn't petition the FAA to change seating rules.
     
  15. WestonHarvey1 macrumors 68020

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    #15
    "But now the ultra-Orthodox Jewish population is growing rapidly because of high birthrates. Ultra-Orthodox men and their families now make up a larger share of airline travelers to Israel and other locations, giving them more economic clout with airlines"

    Bingo. If you keep contracepting yourselves out of existence, you're handing the world over to groups of people you don't like.

    Until you start having at least 3 kids, quit complaining. You're getting the world you want.
     
  16. Renzatic Suspended

    Renzatic

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    #16
    Lots of beans, I hope.
     
  17. D.T. macrumors 603

    D.T.

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    #17
    Lots ...


    :D
     
  18. vrDrew thread starter macrumors 65816

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    #18
    Its more than just that.

    The ultra-Orthodox (Haredi) now make up a significant proportion of the population of Israel: roughly 750,000 out of a total population of 7.5 million.

    But what is worse, the Haredi are exempt from service in the Israel Defense Forces, and while their regular (Jewish, Israeli) contemporaries are serving their country for a few hundred dollars a month - the Ultra Orthodox are free to continue their careers and receive generous additional stipends for their religious studies. Its frankly deeply unfair to ordinary Israelis.

    This is an issue I find extremely frustrating. I think like most people I try to go out of my way to respect and be accommodating to to people of different religions and races. I'll happily give up my seat for a pregnant woman, a disabled person, or frankly anyone who needs a little assistance.

    But once religious (or other minorities) - or in fact anyone at all - start demanding extra privileges and rights that the rest of society doesn't get - I begin to lose patience with the whole thing.

    Respect is a two-way street.
     
  19. FieldingMellish Suspended

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    #19
    Speaking of two-way street,

    Hasidim went ballistic when scantily-clad women passed on bicycles, using the new bicycle lanes installed as part of a large project by New York’s Commissioner Janette Sadik-Khan.

    The NY Post, in all it’s headline-writing glory, called it Hasid Lust Cause. The sub-headline, “It’s the Hasids vs. the hotties in a Brooklyn bike war.” New York Mag called it,” The Clash of the Bearded Ones.” Sub-headline: Hipsters, Hasids, and the Williamsburg street.
     
  20. citizenzen macrumors 65816

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    #20
    It would seem to me that the answer then is to love more.

    Then you'd be handing the world over to people you love.
     
  21. yg17 macrumors G5

    yg17

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    #21
    I can't help but think if this was the other way around - women (or anybody, really) refusing to sit next to a Jew, you wouldn't hear the end of it. It would be all over front pages, people would be screaming about racism and anti-Semitism, but I'm going to guess that there will be little outrage over this.
     
  22. I7guy macrumors G5

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    #22
    I disagree and we'll have to agree to disagree. This person is not serving the public and could care less about the religious beliefs of a seat neighbor and that's the big difference. Having orthodox friends there is another side that's not hobby lobby.
     
  23. Sydde macrumors 68020

    Sydde

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    #23
    these haredi make the muslims look like laid-back hippies
     
  24. caesarp, Apr 17, 2015
    Last edited: Apr 17, 2015

    caesarp macrumors 6502a

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    #24
    But they do care. By asking others to move and holding a plane hostage till they get their way, the orthodox are saying others views don't matter only their view. So they are saying you in that seat may have a different view than I do, but tough luck. That's a passive aggressive way of denigrating the views of the non believers in orthodox Judaism and their views on women. Both hobby lobby and the orthodox (who do the plane thing) suck.

    Why should we RESPECT the orthodox view? Cause he claims its religion? So what? Why is that automatically deemed worthy of causing issues for people who are not of that religion. Perhaps it should be called out as ludicrous if not impractical on a plane. This reflexive respect that some have for anything with the word religion in front of it is part of the problem.

    So as I've proved, both the hobby lobby owners and the orthodox on planes cause issues for other people who are not of the same religion. THATS THE PROBLEM and that's where the similarity lies. Don't use your religion to affect others. And don't expect the rest of us to accommodate you in public.
     
  25. aaronvan, Apr 17, 2015
    Last edited: Apr 17, 2015

    aaronvan Suspended

    aaronvan

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    #25
    Sufis are laid-back hippies. It's the Sunni and Shi'a extremists that give Islam a bad name.
     

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