MP 7,1 Most won’t be able to afford a new Mac Pro

Discussion in 'Mac Pro' started by satchmo, Jun 1, 2019.

  1. Zellio macrumors 65816

    Zellio

    Joined:
    Feb 7, 2012
    #301
    Maybe not for a large commercial setup, but for a small one it's far better

    Or for one you own

    You guys keep acting like building your own takes a long time and only hobbyist do it, and you can't be a businessman if you build your own. A little bit ironic considering the company you guys follow was founded by people who made a business by building computers don't you think?
     
  2. amedias macrumors regular

    amedias

    Joined:
    Feb 9, 2008
    Location:
    Devon, UK
    #302
    No I think it's just that when you can do it you assume others can. For most people it's knowledge and skills they don't have, and frankly don't want to have. They might be able to learn, as you say it's not difficult, but it is time consuming the first time round, and you then need the inclination to want to do it and to keep supporting it.

    Those are hours and effort that they could otherwise put into other tasks, whether that be money making tasks at work, or time at home with family.

    Also, don't under estimate the fact that many many people are adept at using computers to get their work done, but couldn't tell you which bit was the ram, and which the CPU if you took the cover off, you don't need to understand how a computer works or fits together to use it to produce something.

    For the vast majority the extra few £/$ spent up front when buying kit is a worthwhile price to make it "someone else's problem", especially when you get some extra level of verification and support, building yourself you simply can't do the same level of testing and verification that an OEM can, and that does have value.
     
  3. Zellio macrumors 65816

    Zellio

    Joined:
    Feb 7, 2012
    #303
    Alright I agree to that (Well maybe not the 'you need to keep supporting it' line. It's just another pc in the end. They all use the same parts today except for things like ecc. You buy quality stuff it lasts a long time). TBH it's just a suggestion and it goes back to hedt. Maybe instead of build your own I should've just said 'Dude go buy a dell?' :rolleyes::(

    For me personally, if something goes wrong I fix it. I can take apart and fix cars, I can weld, I know basic electrical knowledge (by basic I mean I could easily be hired for most tasks), I know plumbing... All of this was done by fixing up my house myself and the fact that I spent my childhood taking things apart. I built my home gym, I upgraded my house, I hate calling people for something when I can do it myself. In the end it's yours. It's something to be proud of. You can pick out stuff to refurnish your house at lowes, but you can't have the satisfaction of doing it yourself. I can, but I suppose not everyone has a chain saw (both large gas powered and small electrical), electric circular saw, milter saw with table attachment, electric pole saw (although it's made by poulan pro, as in you keep pullin, it's not exactly the company with the best reputation, so lets see how long it lasts....), electric reciprocating saw, and oscillating saw, and that's JUST my collection of power saws......

    So maybe not everyone has a full garage worth of power tools or the knowledge or skill to repair things. Maybe people haven't done it since they were children like me. I still think if you believe you can do that it would be a good idea. It saves money, it makes you more independant, it makes you the boss. Otherwise I guess we agree to disagree.
     
  4. amedias macrumors regular

    amedias

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    Feb 9, 2008
    Location:
    Devon, UK
    #304
    I don’t disagree with the concept, like you I build and maintain my own stuff, but it’s just remembering that not everyone is like that and so it’s not always appropriate.

    Part of being in IT is understanding your users needs, not just the technology they need but how they use it and the environment they use it in.

    One of the guys I support could save thousands if I/he built his computers from parts, but he literally has no idea how computers work, he just needs (a powerful) one to do his work and has no inclination to learn how to build or fix one as it’s of no interest to him. He is quite typical of commercial users, even at the high end.
     
  5. Zellio macrumors 65816

    Zellio

    Joined:
    Feb 7, 2012
    #305
    Well again it's just a suggestion. It's always my first. If you can, do. Sure if you're gonna **** it up I wouldn't suggest it. But this isn't brain surgery.

    Anyway I suppose if you need to use osx my next suggestions would be the used market for 5.1 and 6.1. The 2013 base mac pro seems to go for a 'good' price of around $1000, and it's pretty easy to upgrade to a 12 core on that. And the 12 core processors can be had for $200 and up! That honestly has me tempted a tad... If only this ****ing keyboard diDN'T SUCK SO MUCH HOLY **** WHY DID YOU MAKE THIS BUTTERFLY **** APPLE
     
  6. William Payne macrumors 6502a

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    Jan 10, 2017
    Location:
    Wanganui, New Zealand.
    #306
    I know some incredibly skilled people who I wouldn't trust with a screwdriver.
     
  7. Zdigital2015 macrumors 68000

    Joined:
    Jul 14, 2015
    Location:
    East Coast, United States
    #307
    I worked as the Project Manager of a small group of designers, but being a small company, I also had to do hardware and software repair and tech support. I could have built Hackintoshes, but I just didn't want the headache of keeping up with them, because I had staff who would break them within a day software-wise. Downtime was non-billable and I had no time to troubleshoot things unless it ground them to a halt. I have built my own PCs, you're right it is not rocket science, but for me now, it isn't 30 minutes to build, its a couple of hours. And that couple of hours gets in the way of taking care of clients needs, because my primary job is Project Manager...and so while I would say that you cannot compare a list of parts you put together yourself to a finished Mac Pro that you take out of the box and set up, the added cost is a no-brainer if it means that I spend just 2-3 hours every 30-36 months setting up a new Mac, transferring files from old to new and that designer just keeps on going. At their hourly billing rate, a Hackintosh would be a disaster and they are not Windows people at all, ever...its just a complete non-starter.

    AMEN!!!

    Or to make sure the gas range is turned off!
     
  8. Zellio macrumors 65816

    Zellio

    Joined:
    Feb 7, 2012
    #308
    Well yeah, if it goes into hackintosh realm I'd definitely call that 'hobbyist territory', a simple update to the os can brick it after all...…. And that's not even talking about how long it takes to get it working.

    But for me it's all about having my own thing. It's like customizing a car. I suppose most don't but if you can take it apart and repair various parts or simply upgrade them you feel good.

    Anyway, I still suggest the used market for those wanting mac pro parts and not having 6 grand for parts you'd need to replace (ahem, the small ssd and the ram would eventually get replaced)
     
  9. flygbuss macrumors 6502

    flygbuss

    Joined:
    Jul 22, 2018
    Location:
    Stockholm, Sweden
    #309
    It's not about saving money, it's about earning it. I want to keep maintenance and setup time as low as possible.
    Sometimes it's too much hassle with setting up additional audio hard and software in the studio already.
    If I'm looking then for help it's just way more easy if my hardware is not too much customized.
    I work with Avid hard- and software and they give me exact specs about which hardware they support.
    I don't wanna install any asio drivers or think of possible incompatibilities between my DAW and a virus scanner.

    Hackintosh is great. But nothing I would use for my business since it's not licensed.
     
  10. Zdigital2015 macrumors 68000

    Joined:
    Jul 14, 2015
    Location:
    East Coast, United States
    #310
    Without wading into the whole Pro vs PRO debate, not knowing your situation, I am guessing that the 2014 Mac mini would not have had enough horsepower for you to do your Pro work. It would not have for mine, while the Late 2014 27" Retina 5K iMac may have been enough horsepower and the 2013 Mac Pro enough horsepower and then some depending on the configuration.

    My point being that the 2014 mini had almost zero overlap with the 2014 5K iMac and the 2013 Mac Pro, while the 2014 5K iMac and 2013 Mac Pro had overlap to a point, at least in benchmarks, and until you moved to the 8- or 12-core, you might not have felt left out of the party doing work on the iMac versus the MacPro? Sorry to make it complicated.

    With the introduction of the 2018 Mac mini, all three tiers have enough horsepower to be faster than the 2017 27" iMac and overlap heavily with the 2019 27" iMac, at least until you hit the Core i9. In fact, all of the CPUs used in the 2018 Mac mini are also in the 2019 iMac by default or as a BTO option (i7-8700/B), which was something that had been sorely lacking for the past 4 years after the 2012 was replaced.

    Plenty of people have viable 5,1 Mac Pros that will last a few more years, but certain PRO workflows have had massive increases in the requirements, so that a 1080p/30 8-bit workflow that was possible on an older Mac Pro 5,1 has been replaced with a 4K/60 10-bit HDR workflow that brings some modern computers to their knees and puts a stake through the old 5,1.

    With the Mac Pro 5,1 and 6,1 now being outclassed by the Mac mini, the bar for entry ($$$) into a lot of Pro workflows was lowered the day Apple introduced the 2018 mini.

    What I am trying to "argue", for lack of a better term, is that certain specific workflows that are either in their infancy (4K HDR) or have yet to really even start in earnest (8K) were Apple's primary targets with the 2019 Mac Pro did not exist in 2009-2012 (Golden Age of the Mac Pro) or even in 2013 (that thing everyone seems to hate) and that had they been at that time, the Mac Pros of the day (2009-2013) would have been woefully inadequate. Instead, 1080p/30p or 60p content ruled the day and was a fairly well-established workflow by then. When Apple decided to build the 2019 Mac Pro, I think they started at the high end (28c, 24c and maybe 16c) as their baseline and actually worked backwards to increase the number of Pro who could take advantage of the new Mac Pro as the original spec started at $20K and went up from there. And so, to reach as many people as they could, they pared back the configuration until they arrived at a price they thought would be palatable considering they missed about 3 generations of updates to the 2013 Mac Pro and all the consequent chances to raise the prices gradually to that level. Six years with an upgrade every two years of CPU/DRAM/GPU/SSD and they could have bumped it up in 2015 to a $4000 minimum, 2017 could have moved it to PCIe 3.0 and TB3, I think (have to double-check) and $5K base, which would have matched the iMac Pro) and finally this year, a new chassis, new CPUs, new MPX, et al and a rise in price to $6K.

    Anyways, I think Apple's answer for their lack of attention to the Mac Pro since 2013 has been to increase the capabilities of the iMac and iMac Pro at the higher end and then they shored up the bottom end with a truly capable 2018 Mac mini. Now, they have returned to the higher end past the iMac Pro and to be at the cutting edge of certain specific workflows to appeal to their most eager potential customers. Just my 2¢.
     
  11. AlexMaximus, Jun 11, 2019
    Last edited: Jun 11, 2019

    AlexMaximus macrumors 6502a

    AlexMaximus

    Joined:
    Aug 15, 2006
    Location:
    A400M Base
    #311
    The way the non pro enthusiast fan boy can afford it is to keep that pimped 5.1 for at least another 24 - 36 Month and go for a used 7.1 then.

    I am real happy with that Vega VII at the moment. Mojave support will not run out anytime soon.

    @Zdigital2015 I completely agree with you. It is stunning how much power the new consumer iMac has when it’s customized to the max. I am not sure if I will ever need more than that.
     
  12. ssgbryan macrumors 6502a

    ssgbryan

    Joined:
    Jul 18, 2002
    #312
    You don't do more with less - you do less with less - that's why it is called less.

    How are you doing more when you have a thermally throttled computer?
     
  13. masterbaron, Jun 11, 2019
    Last edited: Jun 11, 2019

    masterbaron macrumors 6502

    masterbaron

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    Nov 22, 2012
    Location:
    3rd Planet from the Sun
    #313
    My workflow in the past rarely utilized the full potential of the MacPro - the escalating cost forced me to re-evaluate my actual needs and level-set my projected needs ... surprisingly the 2012 Mini stepped in and I haven't looked back - so, in my case I'm getting more functionality per cycle with less power consumption and bling - my workflow has fully exploited my 3 Mini (s) which are still performing way past the 4 year life of my first MacPro and my second used one.

    Power, speed and flexibility have traditionally experienced exponential gains with each generation of products enabling users to do more with less expensive machines in the line-up as time moves forward.
     
  14. ssgbryan macrumors 6502a

    ssgbryan

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    Jul 18, 2002
    #314
    That would be the difference - my workflow will take everything I can throw at it and will still ask for more.
     
  15. dazzer21-2 macrumors regular

    Joined:
    Dec 3, 2005
    #315
    Pretty much my take on it, too.
     
  16. masterbaron macrumors 6502

    masterbaron

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    #316
    Perhaps then, you shouldn't attempt to bare the burden solely yourself - off to the farms maybe ...
     
  17. ssgbryan macrumors 6502a

    ssgbryan

    Joined:
    Jul 18, 2002
    #317
    Are you offering to pay for it? For me, 3d Art is a hobby. A hobby that can only be realized on a workstation.

    I can build a farm if needed. A Z-210 set up as part of a render farm (4 core/8 thread - 32gb ram) is cheaper than a video card. For the price of a top of the line video card, I can have 5 Z210 (20 cores/40 threads 160 gb ram) as well as both of my 4,1s and my 1,1.
     
  18. Onelifenofear macrumors regular

    Joined:
    Feb 20, 2019
    Location:
    London
    #318

    I actually know for a fact it did - Apart from the ones I See everywhere as a freelancer - I have inside knowledge of Mac Sales (in Europe at least). It's not selling MILLIONS because it's not that kind of product. Dell doesn't sell millions of T9s or other workstations.
     
  19. gregohb macrumors newbie

    gregohb

    Joined:
    Aug 5, 2013
    Location:
    Los Angeles, CA, USA
    #319
    Here is a math question. What is the next number in this sequence : 2.0, 2.5, 3.0, x?

    I believe the pricing history was something like this
    2013 Mac Pro $3k
    Metal Tower $2.5k
    Plastic iMac-like Mac tower $2k

    The answer for apple is 6.0 as in $6k. And thats for the base amateur model. How much will the 27 core be? Probably getting close to $15k with that new. $5k monitor. You can buy a new Prius for $22k, so getting close.

    And as cool as it looks in a retro way, I dread a 50 lb block of steel in my office again.
     
  20. pastrychef macrumors 601

    pastrychef

    Joined:
    Sep 15, 2006
    Location:
    New York City, NY
    #320
    I think I paid over $2000 a few times for Power Mac G4s back in the early 2000s. Those were consumer level computers that competed against consumer level PCs. Do you remember the snail?
    pentium-snail-hires.jpg

    Fast forward almost two decades. Apple still has consumer level Macs at around the same price level of those old Power Mac G4s. Heck, they even come with a monitor built-in.
    Screen Shot 2019-06-13 at 8.40.57 AM.png

    The new Mac Pros are on a different level and are NOT meant for average consumers.
     

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