Mukasey compares US torture to Nazi tactics

Discussion in 'Politics, Religion, Social Issues' started by SMM, Oct 18, 2007.

  1. SMM macrumors 65816

    SMM

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    #1
    From Crook and Liars:

    Not only did Michael Mukasey repudiate the so-called 2002 “torture memo” signed by Office of Legal Counsel chief Jay Bybee — which appears to have survived in spirit, if not in letter — but he compared U.S. torture to the Holocaust. […]

    The Bybee memo is “worse than a sin, it’s a mistake,” Mukasey said. He referenced the photographs taken by U.S. troops who liberated the Nazi concentration camps in 1945 to document the “barbarism” the U.S. opposed. “They didn’t do that so that we could then duplicate it ourselves.” Beyond legal restrictions barring torture clearly, torture is “antithetical to everything this country stands for.”

    Here is a link to the article.

    I am shocked he still is being supported by the WH. See the thread about "Cheney's Law..." to see what I mean.
     
  2. zap2 macrumors 604

    zap2

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    #2
    What we're doing it bad, terrible stuff, but not really on the same level as the Nazis...slippery slope, but were not there yet
     
  3. SMM thread starter macrumors 65816

    SMM

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    #3
    That is not my quote. I took it directly from C&L. They got it from the man himself. As we have discussed on this board many times before, the 'Nazi' tag is overused, and seldom appropriate for comparison.
     
  4. it5five macrumors 65816

    it5five

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    #4
    I don't know. It's good to hear that he is against torture, but...

    I was listening to NPR today, and they asked him if he believes water-boarding is torture. He would not answer the question. He also said something that along the lines of the President being able to ignore laws Congress passes, if the President deems what he is doing is in the interest of national security.

    I really hope this guy does not get the job. There has to be someone better out there.
     
  5. SMM thread starter macrumors 65816

    SMM

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    #5
    Yes, he did a 180 in his testimony today. And so it goes. :(
     
  6. it5five macrumors 65816

    it5five

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    #6
    I knew there had to be something wrong with him from the start.

    When he was nominated, the media were falling over each other to praise the guy. But then I though, "Wait, would Bush actually nominate someone who isn't twisted?"

    I will be really disappointed if Mukasey gets okayed.
     
  7. Ugg macrumors 68000

    Ugg

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    #7
    Comparing ourselves to those of the past gets nobody nowhere. Either what we're doing is right or wrong. When it comes to torture there's no grey area in my mind.
     
  8. coffey7 macrumors 6502a

    coffey7

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    #8
    I think it would be worse to have your head cut off on live tv(something the terrorists do). I don't remember any of our troops doing that. Yelling at a guy with 2 lawyers present while hes drinking tea in not really torture. If a terrorist knew about the location of nuke I would want the govt to do anything possible to find it. I would think that the only torture thats being done is the water boarding. Kind of a simulation of drowning. I guess most people only can hold out with this for a about 30 seconds. Very effective and doesn't last very long. I guess Kahild Sahik Mohhammed(guy who planned 9/11, his nephew was the guy in 1993 that blew up the WTC south tower) lasted the longest ever but he still broke and gave up great intel. Its still better than having your head cut off with a saw. I saw some of those videos and they were not fun to watch and it did last more than a few minutes. I didn't sleep well after watching that. After a while a guy that is sleep deprived and water boarded will spill the beans. if he lies they just go at it again. They all break sometime. At least thats what I heard from a guy who was in Vietnam and saw Korean troops get intel from captives. Please don't report me for this post. I am just giving my opinion and I hope I didn't offend anyone.
     
  9. it5five macrumors 65816

    it5five

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    #9
    Except torture doesn't work. All it does it make people tell the torturers what they want to hear.

    There is also a big difference between the scenarios you are trying to use to justify torture. When religious extremists capture people and behead them, they aren't doing it to try to get information from anyone.

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/10/05/AR2007100502492_2.html?hpid=topnews

    Read that. The guys who were brought in to interrogate top Nazi officials have spoken out. What they did is the ONLY thing that works in getting REAL information from people.

    If you water board anyone long enough, they will tell you anything you want to hear. You could make anyone say anything.

    And if water boarding is as insignificant as you think it is, surely you wouldn't mind having it done to you?

    Also, read about the Birmingham Six.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Birmingham_Six

    All confessed to crimes they did not commit, because they were tortured.
     
  10. solvs macrumors 603

    solvs

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    #10
    Well, Blackwater has been caught doing some pretty bad things.

    No it isn't, but as you posted, that isn't really what's happening. It's far worse, and that fact that there aren't any lawyers present at all is even more disturbing. That's not what our country is supposed to stand for. Just like we can't look at what they're doing, with car bombs and beheadings, and say "well at least we aren't that bad". We aren't supposed to be even comparable. We're supposed to be the good guys. We ask our soldiers to die for freedom, yet we're supposed to be willing to give up rights and civility for the perception of temporary safety? Doesn't seem like America to me. Not to mention the fact that we lose any right to call for Geneva Convention rules if our troops are caught, even for those who still go by those rules.

    That and, as posted, in a majority of cases, it doesn't actually work, despite what you may have heard regarding those cases.
     
  11. coffey7 macrumors 6502a

    coffey7

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    #11
    Blackwater guards are not part of any military unit I was ever in. If I was tied up and someone was going to cut my hand off I would tell them anything they wanted to know. Like I said before all they have to do is water board them for 30 seconds and they will talk. If they lie about something all you have to do is go back and try again. At Guantanamo Bay every prisoner has 2 Attorneys who are present at all times when they are spoken to. Any torture that goes on would have to be done before they get there. I'm not saying I like people being hurt in any way but I was just wondering how everyone knows it doesn't work. Everyone will break sometime. If you wanted to find out the location of a nuke(that could kill millions in a city) what would you do?
     
  12. it5five macrumors 65816

    it5five

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    #12
    So you yourself admit that torture is useless and only gets people to say what the torturers want to hear?

    I am appalled that you think waterboarding for "just 30 seconds" is okay. I sure hope the rest of the military doesn't think the same as you/

    Here's some links for you:

    100 U.S. Law Professors send a letter to Alberto Gonzalez

    Actual US Law on Torture

    State Department uses waterboarding as an example of torture coming from Tunisia

    What would I do if we had a guy who knew where a nuke was? I'd do what all good interrogators do, and what those guys did in that article I linked you to that you probably didn't read. I'll link it again; maybe you should read it this time.

    Men who interrogated Nazis break their silence
     
  13. solvs macrumors 603

    solvs

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    #13
    Well, they're there now.

    If they're even the right person.

    It isn't always about Gitmo, and there aren't always. Especially in the beginning. Kinda the problem.

    Military Interrogators are Posing as Lawyers at Gitmo

    You've already been given links for that.

    You'd be surprised.

    First of all, stop watching 24, because it isn't like that. Regular police work and the methods mentioned in the links you didn't read work far better than the wild goose chases torturing people we think might know something provides. Besides, do you want to give up what we're supposed to stand for for some theoretical bomb this administration has scared you into believing could happen? Even though it really doesn't work like that? Even though other methods work better? Some of which, like those recommended by the 9/11 Commission, this admin didn't even want to implement.
     
  14. skunk macrumors G4

    skunk

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    #14
    Most of them are ex-Army, so I suspect you are wrong.
    Possibly the most inhumane and psychopathic reasoning I have seen on this forum. Torture IS COMPLETELY UNACCEPTABLE and DOES NOT WORK.
    You have to be joking. You believe this hogwash?
    This situation has NEVER ARISEN. It is a figment of a Hollywood imagination. People who condone torture do not deserve the protection they imagine it provides.
     
  15. coffey7 macrumors 6502a

    coffey7

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    #15
    People have been captured and intel has been given. The master mind of 9/11 KSM(kahild Shiek Mohammed) gave info. He made it through the water boarding longer than anyone ever. Like I said if the guy lies all they do is go back and keep on trying.

    So if a bomb was in a city near you and people you loved were there you would not do anything to prevent the disaster? I would do anything.
     
  16. it5five macrumors 65816

    it5five

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    #16
    Please. Read the links. They are text that is in blue and underlined. Read them.

    Intel has been given; incorrect intel.

    Read this, if you read any of the articles, about KSM.

    Confession of 9/11 architect backfires on US

     
  17. skunk macrumors G4

    skunk

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    #17
    KSM admitted to every recorded evil on earth. What the hell good did that do? Do you call this justice? Is this vision worth fighting for?

    Let me know when this happens, will you? Until then, stop fantasising.
     

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