My Simple Question for Progressive (Bernie) Liberals

Discussion in 'Politics, Religion, Social Issues' started by CLS727, Jun 6, 2018.

  1. CLS727 macrumors regular

    CLS727

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    #1
    For those that want free national health care, free college education, etc... if you believe it to be a "human right", then why are people within the invisible lines of the USA more important than people elsewhere?

    So if, in a hypothetical future, the globalists win out... and a United Nations type organization is the 1 government of the whole world made of equal representatives with no leader.... there is 1 currency and 1 free market (non-communist) economy..... 1 flat tax code no matter where you are.... 1 "military/police" to keep order.... and there no borders anywhere or rules for where anyone can live.... and 1 set "safety net" of entitlements for the poor.

    Now under that structure. Can you have free healthcare for everyone? Free education for everyone? I get that a government like that would be inherently more socialist. But would it collapse under the weight of trying to provide everything to 8.5+ BILLION people in the world?

    Even with heavy taxing on the natural financial centers that would form, and suck up all the money... it still just would never add up to provide the same entitlements to a NYC person and a small African village person.... so then, is that fair?

    Basically, "my point" is that those that believe in these kinds of programs for the USA can’t apply the same ideals for the rest of the world. So it’s completely hypocritical if the main goal is just driven by guilt for those less fortunate.
     
  2. Fugabutacus macrumors regular

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  3. CLS727 thread starter macrumors regular

    CLS727

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    #3
    Right, so then why free USA health care?

    What makes a USA person different than anyone else?
     
  4. Fugabutacus macrumors regular

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    #4
    They've been born into a country that can afford to look after them. It isn't fair, but it is what it is.
     
  5. Sydde macrumors 68020

    Sydde

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    #5
    In the US (or, for that matter, any given country), it is inherently more cost-effective to implement UHC. Private insurers form a complicated system of risk assessors and claims adjusters in order to maintain their profitability; UHC pays for every (needed) thing and covers everyone, so the machinery to make it work is far simpler and fairer. Medicare's overhead is something like 0.5% of revenue, which would be unthinkable to and Aetna or Blue Cross.

    Free education would be a similar thing, which would probably pay for itself in the social/economic progress one could expect from an improvement in average education, but it would also be not entirely “free”, in the sense that, if you want college (or votech), you have to earn it by doing the work (Bluto Blutarsky would get kicked to the curb in his freshman year).

    Could it be done on a worldwide scale? Probably, but there may be cultural hurdles to navigate. Surely a healthcare risk pool of many billions of subscribers would be better than one in the tens of thousands, but I doubt the form and delivery of care could be held to a uniform standard across the globe. And the same would hold for education, which would have to be flexible because different countries have different needs and ideals: homogenizing all of humanity would almost certainly be counterproductive.

    Before we could even consider that, though, we would need to make it work here. Like some sort of large-scale test bed, which would tell us about its practicality. The US likes to tout itself as the most advanced country in the world, but there is not shortage of frustration and misery over the simple things that we have let trip us up. If we cannot begin by making this great country run like a well-oiled machine, looking ahead to making the world that much better seems like dancing with a man of straw.
     
  6. R.Perez macrumors 6502

    R.Perez

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    #6
    I was going to answer your questions but I was too busy rolling my eyes.
     
  7. RichardMZhlubb Contributor

    RichardMZhlubb

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    #7
    The OP proceeds from the mistaken notion that Sanders wants “free” healthcare or “free” education. He is advocating for healthcare and education paid for through tax dollars. I fully support both ideas, but asking why they shouldn’t apply globally is silly. We don’t have a global government or system of tax revenue that you would need to pay for these things.
     
  8. appleisking macrumors 6502a

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    #8
    Your post is ripe full of logical fallacies. Assuming this is a serious question it’s not hypocritical at all. Our job is to care about our country first and foremost and after that if we can spare it to help out those less fortunate in other countries. Otherwise by your logic why bither enforcing our borders and having a military that protects our country and ambassadors that represent our interests.
    --- Post Merged, Jun 7, 2018 ---
    It’s also not just about helping the less fortunate. It’s about having a more educated and healthier country that can compete globally.
    --- Post Merged, Jun 7, 2018 ---
    Believe it or not that’s Bernie’s way of making America great again
     
  9. BoxerGT2.5 macrumors 68000

    BoxerGT2.5

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    #9
    There's nothing "free", Sanders wants a MASSIVE redistribution of wealth and a MASSIVE centralized government to control it that would make Lenin proud.
     
  10. mac_in_tosh macrumors 6502

    mac_in_tosh

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    #10
    Not necessarily.
     
  11. Fugabutacus macrumors regular

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    #11
    "There's simply no way to implement universal healthcare," says only developed nation without universal healthcare.
     
  12. Apple OC macrumors 68040

    Apple OC

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    #12
    for some people ... means the same as "free"
     
  13. chagla macrumors 6502a

    chagla

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    #13
    You seem to believe in "hard working" and earning ones money. So, with the recent handout for the rich, they just got richer. Where is their "hard work"? Some stands to gain millions without a sweat.

    Conservatives bible thumpers will scream Christian values for everything except when it comes to giving to needy.
    gun regulation =/= banning
    paying fair tax =/= taking away wealth
     
  14. s2mikey macrumors 68020

    s2mikey

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    #14
    Oh wait - you cant go playing the fairness card when Bernie and his socialist weenies are 100% all about "fairness" as in you have more than me and thats not FAIR. Hence, their policies always push socilaism, income equality and all of that other garbage that never works.

    So...yeah. BAM.
     
  15. Fugabutacus macrumors regular

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    #15
    Can you rephrase this so I can read your point without bursting a blood vessel please
     
  16. Mousse macrumors 68000

    Mousse

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    #16
    That's why we can't have a debate with extremist. They always violate the 10 Commandments of Logical thinking.
    [​IMG]
    The 2nd and 6th commandments are the most offend abused by them. Ain't no middle ground with an extremist.

    Nearly all the world's wealth in hoarded by only 5% of the people and they control the government (either directly or via "the politicians they carry around in their pockets, like so many nickles and dimes.") It'll only be a matter of time before the masses over turn tables and demand their share. So says history... the French Revolution, the Bolshevik Revolution, the Peasant's Revolt and so on.
     
  17. bopajuice, Jun 7, 2018
    Last edited: Jun 7, 2018

    bopajuice Suspended

    bopajuice

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    #17
    Each country is different and defined by it's borders. Isn't that why we want to build a wall?

    Obviously if our country became part of a larger worldwide conglomerate much would change not just around the world but in our country as well.

    Free healthcare and education would be the least of our worries. Having to share the world stage, resources, and governing responsibilities with countries that are corrupt (Worse than ours), countries that repress, torture, restrict, and execute their citizens would take priority over sharing our healthcare system. Besides many other countries already provide healthcare for all their citizens.

    If we became part of a worldwide governing body does that mean we would also inherit legal prostitution like in the Netherlands and other places? Would we inherit the universal healthcare many countries already enjoy? Would we change the age of consent here in the USA to 11 like it is in Nigeria? Would we legalize pot for the whole country like they did in several other countries?

    Double edged question for sure.
     
  18. LizKat macrumors 601

    LizKat

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    #18
    We wouldn't need that. We wouldn't even need taxes at the level they were in the early 60s. TMD (too much drama) here.
     
  19. BoxerGT2.5 macrumors 68000

    BoxerGT2.5

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    #19
    Unlike the majority on the left, I don't believe every single "rich" person was handed their wealth on a silver platter. That they did nothing or took no risk to acquire their wealth. Since when is it a "handout" to allow people to keep more of their money? Are the taxes you pay your money or the governments money by default? Listen, do I think they should pay more, yes, but the top 1% pays for close to 50% of this country, I don't find it useful to call them names doing it.
     
  20. NT1440 macrumors G4

    NT1440

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    #20
    That fact that we’re the lone holdout from the rest of the modern world in implementing this....
     
  21. BoxerGT2.5 macrumors 68000

    BoxerGT2.5

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    #21
    For single payer and college tuition for everyone?
     
  22. LizKat macrumors 601

    LizKat

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    #22
    That's a little too much drama too (from the left), in my opinion, although I don't know why the right tags single payer as "free" when that's not the case. As far as college goes, not everyone's suited for it and the options should include apprenticeships and nonprofit vocational education, i.e. reaching back into high school.

    On healthcare, single payer a la Medicare would be more affordable to working people than what we have on offer now. The larger pool is what allows the care to be extended at lower rates.
     
  23. bopajuice, Jun 7, 2018
    Last edited: Jun 7, 2018

    bopajuice Suspended

    bopajuice

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    #23
    In all seriousness, I don't think Universal Healthcare could ever happen under a Republican controlled government. Not because they are right or wrong, but because in order to make universal healthcare a reasonable prospect, we would need to reign in healthcare costs. In other words regulation and legislation. I think the root of our problem is not the insurance companies, but the healthcare providers themselves.

    I have read story after story of people being charged $400 for aspirin, being charged $100,000 for knee surgery at one place, and then find out the place down the street charged $15,000. Drug makers raising their prices 500% or more. I am all for paying doctors and staff a good wage, but the prices customers are charged for services, would be the equivalent of what Nasa charges the government for a hammer. Why cant we get a price list? Why can't we visit a website to compare costs like we do for car insurance?

    I read a story recently of a woman who had a surgery that she thought was covered, but since she did not get approval for an overnight visit she received a bill for over $100,000. She then requested a copy of the bill and found she was charged thousands for four tiny screws (Among other things).

    https://www.npr.org/sections/health...lts-oklahoma-patient-15-076-for-4-tiny-screws

    I know this is just one example, but there are many many more found just by doing a little search.

    Until we fix problems like this there were be no universal healthcare.
     
  24. Mac'nCheese macrumors 68040

    Mac'nCheese

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    #24
    Show me when people have said that you having more than me is not fair. People have said that the playing field is not equal and that the rich get too many breaks but not that no one should be rich ever. Please don't just source one wack job and then try to use a broad brush.
     
  25. CLS727, Jun 7, 2018
    Last edited: Jun 7, 2018

    CLS727 thread starter macrumors regular

    CLS727

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    #25
    This is exactly my point.

    The "global government" was a hypothetical because it's an extension of the same logic.

    Why is it fair to advocate for taxpayer funded on scale of the USA, but not the world?

    If you live in NYC, LA, or SF..... why would you care about (and be willing to pay for) the heathcare and education for some poor person in Alabama more than you would for a poor person anywhere else?

    Because if the intentions are just a 'love thy neighbor' sort of thing, what's the difference?

    Because Conservatives will highlight it being impossible to work on a global scale.... just expands on the flaws of the concept on a smaller scale, economics wise.
     

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