N64 Emmu

Discussion in 'Games' started by mrgreen4242, Jul 15, 2005.

  1. DrNeroCF macrumors 6502

    Sep 2, 2004
    Compare Snes9x Custom to anything that Bannister has made, then tell me he doesn't suck.

    Ultra HLE running on a 533 celeron is twice as fast as SixtyForce 8.0 running on a 1.67 g4. The mac n64 emulation scene blows.

    And it's the roms that are illegal. completely illegal. Backing up roms, according to Nintendo, is illegal. Playing a game bought by them on any other media than what Nintendo publishes it on is illegal. The emulators themselves are completely legal (unless they use the console's bios rom), that's why there's commercial emulators out there. Running homebrewed software on emulators and talking about it is perfectly legal.

    That being said, I didn't exactly agree with emulating old systems being illegal, but it looks like Nintendo is giving us a legal alternative with the Revolution's virtual console service...
  2. huck500 macrumors 6502


    May 10, 2004
    Southern California

    I've never understood this argument... if you don't care about playing them, that's cool, but are you saying you never bought a phone and then paid for monthly service? Never bought a TV and paid for cable or satellite? Never bought a computer and paid for internet service? I can understand not thinking the total outlay of cash is worth it, but not playing them on principle seems strange to me.
  3. Thad Boyd macrumors newbie

    Feb 14, 2006
    Especially his SNES emulator. Needs a G5? WTF?!

    Oh, it's ABYSMAL.

    But at least I can get a battle going in Mario Kart.

    Emphasis mine. Consider your source. Nintendo is hardly an objective party.

    Copyright law has stated for at least 20 years that a single backup of software is covered under fair use. From there it gets a little murky, into territory which hasn't been tested in court. And given the travesty that is the DMCA, and the ignorance of legislators, judges, and lawyers alike on modern technology in general, a whole lot of things which should be fair use could easily be ruled illegal.

    Precisely -- and Nintendo claims all emulators and all ROMs are illegal, which further shows you can't trust Nintendo to tell the truth here.

    My favorite example of a legal ROM is the Game Boy Color version of Daikatana, which was never released after the PC version tanked so hard. John Romero released it as a legal ROM download.

    Depends what they charge, I suppose. The GBA Classics Collection is absurd -- $20 for a game I already bought 15 years ago? Now, if they put the ENTIRE COLLECTION on a single $20 cartridge, THAT would be reasonable.
  4. Xephian macrumors 6502a


    May 2, 2005
    United States
    It'd be nice for this to happen.

    007 and DN64 were awsome. Along with Perfect Dark.
  5. Eric5h5 macrumors 68020

    Dec 9, 2004
    Do you? I *am* a programmer.

    By "every single other OS" you mean Windows. There are other OSes out there; I've used them, and these features are not included at all. Free or otherwise, unless you want to write them yourself. Why do you feel the need to jump in with comments that are easily demonstrated to be factually incorrect?

    Anyone else who wants to port these emulators to the Mac and add whatever features they want for free can do it. This means you. Put Bannister out of business if you like. Go ahead, I'm waiting!

    OK, now I know you're not a programmer and haven't a clue how emulation works. Do you have any idea what the system requirements for "his" SNES emulator are on other systems? Do you have a single clue at all what "cycle-exact" means?

    I'm sorry, but your comments demonstrate a very weak grasp of how computers or software or emulation work. You couldn't even read the readme file that explains why a G5 is necessary, in terms I would have sworn even a layman could understand.

    Oh well...never underestimate the lack of ability to comprehend in those who are on a mission to "get" someone because of some silly worthless grudge. I'm certainly not going to bother reading your blog if it's this misinformed. I have no respect for people who are all bluster and no action. If it bothers you so much, then port the emulators yourself and put in all the features imaginable and release them for free. Nothing stopping you, or anyone else.

  6. Thad Boyd macrumors newbie

    Feb 14, 2006
    So am I.

    I'm sorry, but are you saying Linux and BSD emulators don't have joystick or fullscreen support? Or, in many cases, network support and OpenGL filters?

    I think the question is, why do YOU feel the need to jump in with comments that are easily demonstrated to be factually incorrect?

    Oh, the old "if you don't like it, code it yourself" chestnut. Anyone playing the elitist programmer drinking game take a shot.

    I know and I don't care. zSNES and SNES9X run wonderfully without having absurd hardware requirements.

    Or maybe I'm a just a pragmatist who thinks that requiring an unnecessarily beefy machine for the job is poor design.

    "You're so ill-informed I'm not even going to read what you have to say!"

    That's another drink, boys.
  7. Sdashiki macrumors 68040


    Aug 11, 2005
    Behind the lens
    For real I agree with the last post.

    SNES9x, has been and always will be to me, the superior SNES emulator. Sure some transparencies are lacking (try chrono trigger) and some of the sounds are a bit 8BIT sounding, but cmon it runs perfectly well and free on an old school G3/4

    I dont know much about this Bannister guy, Im more into the XBOX emulator scene since it is hooked up to what I used to play my games on, a TV and not a 17" monitor. But if someone wants to make money from writing emulators they are in the wrong business.

    You didnt see Andy o'meara (sp?) charging people to download G-Force when he first wrote it. because it gives exposure.

    IMO a programmer is only as good as his work is appealing.

    write a game no one plays, even if its millions of lines of code, you suck at programming.

    write a program everyone wants and uses, your name is now public and people looking for your skills will come checkbooks in hand.

    I dont ever agree with charging $ for tiny little apps that are made for a niche audience. Shareware or a DEMO version is what thats for.
  8. Thad Boyd macrumors newbie

    Feb 14, 2006
    I won't go that far -- Microsoft certainly hasn't gotten where it is by writing quality software, and there are plenty of fantastic programs that few people use or know about.

    My issue with Bannister isn't that he's a poor coder (though I still think a cycle-accurate SNES emulator is hugely unnecessary) or that other people don't like him, it's that he's charging money for services that other people don't charge money for. And, not to put too fine a point on it, he is, in many cases, piggybacking on other people's free code and not giving back to the community. And all the while he and his apologists complain about people who want something for nothing.
  9. Sdashiki macrumors 68040


    Aug 11, 2005
    Behind the lens
  10. DrNeroCF macrumors 6502

    Sep 2, 2004
    I just feel that it's sort of ironic. I mean, anyone wishing to use an emulator for legal purposes (seeing how well they run, screwing with homebrew) doesn't need the features that he provides for a cost. He really only gets paid when people use his software illegally.

    As for the 'Nintendo's not a reliable source on what's legal and what's not,' I won't refute that, but Sony claimed that Bleem!cast was illegal because it allowed the Dreamcast to play copied CDs (funny thing is, to my knowledge, Bleem!cast still hasn't been pirated, and if it is, I want one, since it's pretty much impossible to get legally). Undeniably a crappy argument, but Bleem pretty much died a few weeks later (because of that and that they couldn't get the thing to run more than one game at a time).
  11. benpatient macrumors 68000

    Nov 4, 2003
    Nintendo's "opinion" on the matter of emulation and ROMs is excatly that, an opinion.

    For what it's worth, President Bush has a better argument about the legality of unwarranted domestic wiretaps.
  12. Thad Boyd macrumors newbie

    Feb 14, 2006
    I disagree on that as well.

    Homebrew ROMs can still benefit from joystick and fullscreen, for example, or some of his graphical filters or netplay.

    I also still believe that, DMCA aside, it is still legal for me to play an NES game which I own a copy of. AFAIK the courts have yet to decide otherwise.

    I AM curious, however, about someone so concerned about piracy in a community which is, let's face it, fraught with piracy. Has Richard Bannister sincerely never emulated a ROM he didn't personally own?

    (It bears noting that I know nothing of Irish copyright law, but I assume it's still illegal to play a ROM you haven't purchased there.)

    A crappy argument indeed, and again, AFAIK the case was never decided in court.

    In point of fact this is how copyright cases (and, even moreso, patent cases) tend to get "decided" in the digital age: giant corporation leans on underdog until underdog runs out of money, regardless of innocence or guilt.
  13. Marvy macrumors regular

    Jul 2, 2003
    Ok, so I have been reading this forum, and I'm glad someone has mentioned it: Bannister's emulation policy really is a shame. There are hard-working people out there, making great open-source software, and then people like Bannister come up, and close it up again. I know, I know, he has every right to, blah blah, but I as an OS-programmer and contributor just hate seeing people do that :). So no bannister emus on my machine. I usually recompile Emulators for other Linux and run them under X11. It ain't Aqua, but hey, it's free.
    Aaaanyway, has anyone mentioned the new Mupen64 that's been floating around the net? It even has Intel support, although sound support still seems to be awfully slow. If I shut it off, Ocarina Of Time flies on my iMac 2GHz :).
  14. Thad Boyd macrumors newbie

    Feb 14, 2006
    New Mupen64, you say? I don't see one on their main page (other than the one from November); where'd you see it?
  15. Lord Blackadder macrumors G5

    Lord Blackadder

    May 7, 2004
    Sod off
    Emulation is fun, but it's hard to beat the original system, especially since you can get an N64 for peanuts nowdays....no bugs, no legal woes etc.
  16. Thad Boyd macrumors newbie

    Feb 14, 2006
    My N64's in mothballs. I bought a first-gen Mac Mini for $350 and can use it to play my NES, Genesis, SNES, and N64 collections without digging them out of my closet and taking up valuable shelf space -- not to mention the jungle of cables I'd have to do battle with if I had all my old consoles hooked up.

    It's a pity the Mac N64 scene is so poor, but NES and SNES emulators run pretty damn well, even if you don't throw down $1500 for a computer that can run bSNES.

    Bells and whistles like netplay and graphical filters can be attractive too -- but again, I don't think they're worth $25.
  17. Sdashiki macrumors 68040


    Aug 11, 2005
    Behind the lens
    :: adds modded XBOX with huge HDD to above post ::

  18. Eric5h5 macrumors 68020

    Dec 9, 2004
    Yep. As just one example among many, maybe you'd like to show me a fully-featured Generator running on LinuxPPC.

    Which completely misses the point of bSNES. What, you just want to play g4m3 r0mz or something? You don't really care about emulation; pretty much explains your poor attitude I suppose. You won't contribute code OR money...pretty cheap if you ask me.

  19. Marathon4ever macrumors regular

    Jan 28, 2006
    Bravo, Thad !! You are the man of the thread. Emulators were meant to be completely free.
  20. Eric5h5 macrumors 68020

    Dec 9, 2004
    So VirtualPC should be completely free? VirtualGameStation should have been completely free? Sorry, but there's a long history of emulators being not free. It took a long time before there were any free, functional C64 emulators for example; all of them were commercial products for many years. Fusion (a Mac emulator) was a commercial product for years before it was released "free" on a magazine cover disk (and even then still not really free; you had to buy the magazine). Etc. etc.

    So I have no idea where you got this idea; emulators aren't "meant" to be free any more than any other software. It's totally up to the authors. Still, all of Bannister's emulator ports are completely free. Emulator Enhancer isn't.

  21. Thad Boyd macrumors newbie

    Feb 14, 2006
    1. I said OS, not architecture.

    2. Your one example is not proof. You are attempting to prove a negative. Which is logically impossible.

    To code an emulator, of all things, in OO C++? Yeah. I guess I HAVE missed the point.

    Now why would anyone want to emulate games on a game console emulator? That's crazy talk.

    Yeah, I guess I should go with more positive messages. Like "That's 100% crap and you know it."

    Your arguments seem to consist entirely of straw men, misrepresentations of my words, vague references to what emulation "should" be about, obnoxious cliches, personal attacks and insults.

    Curiously enough, you seem not to have mounted any sort of defense of Bannister other than "it's okay for him to do it because he can".

    Even more curiously, you seem to be accusing ME of having a personal bias rather than arguing based on facts or logic.


    But at least I don't ask for other people to give me code or money in return.
  22. Eric5h5 macrumors 68020

    Dec 9, 2004
    It's not up to me to defend him or anyone else; I just dislike whininess and ignorance. Your arguments consist of claiming things that aren't true ("Do you honestly believe Mac users should have to pay for features that users of every single other OS get for free?"), and you apparently don't actually care about emulation per se ("I know and I don't care" re: bSNES). If I'm "misrepresenting" your words, perhaps you should present them better. I can only reply to what you write, not what you're really thinking.

    Neither Bannister nor anyone else has a lock on the market; yes, people are free to do what they want and charge what they want, as long as they're not breaking any rules. I've never understood why a few people have such a problem with this, and why they expect that everyone should do things their way or it's somehow "wrong" in a vague and undefined manner. I've done both the freeware thing and the commercial thing (shareware always seemed like a bit too much of a bother, but that's just me being lazy); I certainly wouldn't appreciate anyone trying to tell me what I should or shouldn't charge. That's not your call. I either pay for products that I think are worth it, or I don't bother with them, and I don't try to annoy people by writing presumably silly and useless "rants".

    The fact that nobody else has bothered porting the emulators Bannister has, in order to provide what you admit are bells and whistles for free to the poor oppressed Mac masses, I guess pretty much shows what the community thinks. So what was the point again of replying to this thread from last summer? I hope something other than trying to promote your "rant".

  23. Thad Boyd macrumors newbie

    Feb 14, 2006
    That's funny how you're still claiming that's false without any evidence but the implication that PPC Linux is a different OS from x86 Linux.

    I also dig the part where you've moved the goalposts in your argument from "no OS but Windows has emulators that provide those features" to "not all versions of Linux have emulators that provide those features" as if nobody would notice.

    You're defining the purpose of emulation in your terms. Your terms seem to be that an emulator should run as near as possible to the original system and damn the resource costs. Mine are that an emulator should run well on average hardware. You're entitled to your opinion, but mine sure has appeal to a broader audience.

    Not a lot of people accuse me of being inarticulate, Eric. Maybe it's your problem.

    The list of available emulators for OSX says otherwise.

    Again with the "because he can" defense. You're equating "legal" with "ethical". Which I think most people would agree is pretty absurd.

    The same way I'm a "malcontent" for expecting to get the same treatment under OSX as I do under Windows and Linux I suppose.

    But you seem to have no trouble inferring the motivation behind a blog post you haven't even read. Boy, how many sentences did it take you to get from "I can only reply to what you write, not what you're really thinking" to conjecture about the motivations behind a post you haven't even read? ...Five. Amazing.

    I'm not trying to annoy Bannister. If I were I assume he'd already be here, as he seems happy to argue with anyone who criticizes him. I made a blog post because *I* was annoyed, and because -- and this is probably a radical idea here -- I use my blog to share my opinions.

    And -- and this is an equally radical idea -- sometimes people talk about products they think are not worth the money the vendor wants, and say why they think so.

    I have repeatedly stated that joystick support and fullscreen mode are basic functionality, Eric.

    Note, in those last two, the clear separation of categories between joystick/fullscreen -- basic -- and network support/OpenGL filters -- optional.

    Though of course the most telling quote is:

    I sure don't see the part where I say joystick and fullscreen are bells and whistles there.

    Boy, those FOUR POSTS sure were ambiguous. Clearly I should've presented my words better.

    (I also devote some space to it in my blog post, but of course you're uniquely qualified to argue with the points I make there as somebody who hasn't bothered to read it.)

    "We belong to the 95% of computer users who own x86 machines"?

    Pointing out the logical inconsistency in your knee-jerk defense of somebody I don't care too much for, mainly. It's what I do. I enjoy it. Pointing out logical inconsistencies.

    And I'm not saying consensus makes me right, but seeing as you seem to be the only one here who thinks you're being logically consistent, I think I've done an all right job.
  24. ReanimationLP macrumors 68030


    Jan 8, 2005
    On the moon.
  25. Marvy macrumors regular

    Jul 2, 2003
    I got it from here. But you can also find it at MacUpdate under the name "Mupen" (it seems though that the author did not want this to be released there, as he states in a comment). It's version 0.5 and works on PPC and Intels. My "Get Info..." says it's Universal. Another great emu site by the way is, emuscene.

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