Never In America


rainman::|:|

macrumors 603
Feb 2, 2002
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So England, which the puritans fled because of religious intolerance, is now more tolerant than the US. hmm.

I think it's great. He should have just as much right as anyone else to follow his own spiritual path. Of course, which particular sect of Satanism it is would affect my personal opinion of him... If it's the atheist group that uses Satan as an opposing icon to Christianity, more power to him. If it's the (really tiny) group that believes in the biblical Satan, he's an idiot. But a free idiot, nonetheless...

paul
 

brap

macrumors 68000
May 10, 2004
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chanoc said:
...a satanist on a royal navy vessel, and allowed to perform satanic rituals. I can't see that ever happening in the US. :confused:
Land of the free, home of the brave, where freedom of speech and worship rule supreme. Nah, me either.
 

Mr_Ed

macrumors 6502
Mar 10, 2004
443
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chanoc said:
I found this article amusing

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/3948329.stm

a satanist on a royal navy vessel, and allowed to perform satanic rituals. I can't see that ever happening in the US. :confused:
Actually, I think satanists would be allowed to pursue their religion, even in the military in the U.S. If they were not, I believe any court in the country would uphold their constitutional right to do so. I could be wrong, but I don't believe the U.S. military forces any religious doctrine on anyone, so it probably isn't even an issue. As long as an individual can practice (engage in prayer or other rituals) his religion and can provide instructions about what kind of funeral he wants or does not want, I suspect most people (of whatever religion) simply don't make an issue out of it.
 

JRam

macrumors member
Jun 25, 2004
38
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Santa Cruz
Don't ask don't tell is somehow going through my mind right now... I imagine that would be about the US's stance on that.

JRam
 

Mechcozmo

macrumors 603
Jul 17, 2004
5,215
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Honestly, if we don't allow a gay or lesbian to fight we should allow a Satanist because it is more right...

Sometimes the US of A is just plain wackko, to the 10th power. I can't say I am a fan of that religion but hey, so long as he doesn't hurt anyone and doesn't encourage others to hurt...I guess I am fine with it.
 

garybUK

Guest
Jun 3, 2002
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He's probably there on orders of 'the dark side' aka Microsoft to stop the windows 2000 controlled ship from BSOD(ing) :p
 

combatcolin

macrumors 68020
Oct 24, 2004
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If you had an image of what a satanist is, i bet this bloke is about a millon miles away from it and moans that his team get beat every saturday like the rest of us.

And, and you lot had Waco so don't get all uppity.

(On a last note, wonder if he does listen to Judas Priest backwards? :) )
 

wdlove

macrumors P6
Oct 20, 2002
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chanoc said:
I found this article amusing

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/3948329.stm

a satanist on a royal navy vessel, and allowed to perform satanic rituals. I can't see that ever happening in the US. :confused:
I wouldn't be so sure, evil is a very strong force. At least the way American beliefs are at the moment we are safe from that practice. In the future I'm not so sure. Such a sad thing to happen. :(
 

rueyeet

macrumors 65816
Jun 10, 2003
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brap said:
Land of the free, home of the brave, where freedom of speech and worship rule supreme. Nah, me either.
I dunno; pagans are allowed to have their rituals on military bases, and there's at least one practicing Wiccan coven I've heard of on a base in Texas.

Not that Wicca and Satanism are at all the same thing, of course.

From what I understand, the tenets of the Church of Satan basically reverse the Christian teachings that place the spiritual over the wordly, and the idea that physical deprivation--fasting, chastity, etc--are paths to greater holiness. I've never given much credit to that idea, either, but the complete self-gratification advocated by La Vey's brand of Satanism is, in my opinion, repellent.

Still, as long as Cranmer's not causing anyone harm, freedom of religion applies. From the article:

The decision was at the discretion of the captain, the MoD, said, and was on the basis that it did not impinge on the operational effectiveness, safety or security of the ship, or the well-being of colleagues.
Doesn't sound like he's one of the Biblically-oriented Satanists, either:

I don't consider Satan to be an intelligently external force in my life; instead I consider it an empowering internal force.
 

edesignuk

Moderator emeritus
Mar 25, 2002
19,077
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wdlove said:
I wouldn't be so sure, evil is a very strong force. At least the way American beliefs are at the moment we are safe from that practice. In the future I'm not so sure. Such a sad thing to happen. :(
Such a sad thing that a man should be able to believe in what he chooses, but still be able to serve his country?

Honestly, religion already causes enough divides in the world, no matter what your beliefs, if you believe in your country you should be able to fight for it should you want to.
 

jsw

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Mar 16, 2004
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edesignuk said:
Such a sad thing that a man should be able to believe in what he chooses, but still be able to serve his country?

Honestly, religion already causes enough divides in the world, no matter what your beliefs, if you believe in your country you should be able to fight for it should you want to.
Well, since the primary focus of his religion is that one's ultimate goal should be self gratification, it seems like that might conflict somewhat with serving any other person or state....
 

edesignuk

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Mar 25, 2002
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jsw said:
Well, since the primary focus of his religion is that one's ultimate goal should be self gratification, it seems like that might conflict somewhat with serving any other person or state....
OK, so should I be worried about all those pesky christians and their goody goody morals, their beliefs say that it is wrong to kill another man, and that you should forgive. Should I worry about some nut having a sudden attack of consciousness and not pulling the trigger at that vital moment?
 

jsw

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Mar 16, 2004
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edesignuk said:
OK, so should I be worried about all those pesky christians and their goody goody morals, their beliefs say that it is wrong to kill another man, and that you should forgive. Should I worry about some nut having a sudden attack of consciousness and not pulling the trigger at that vital moment?
Sorry, my comment was intended to be followed by a ' ;) '.... In fact, I think that someone acting purely with their own best interests in mind is at least as likely to follow orders as someone with concerns about the morality of shooting the person who is trying to kill them.
 

edesignuk

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Mar 25, 2002
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jsw said:
In fact, I think that someone acting purely with their own best interests in mind is at least as likely to follow orders as someone with concerns about the morality of shooting the person who is trying to kill them.
Exactly, it makes no difference. Both should either be as trusted or not trusted as one another (though maybe for different reasons), and have equal right to serve their county for whatever reason, so long as they pass recruitment/induction etc.
 

jsw

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Mar 16, 2004
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Andover, MA
edesignuk said:
Exactly, it makes no difference. Both should either be as trusted or not trusted as one another (though maybe for different reasons), and have equal right to serve their county for whatever reason, so long as they pass recruitment/induction etc.
We agree. Upstanding Christian soldiers could fight to defend the virtues of fine lasses like Keira from the godless heathens. Satanists could fight to protect hot chicks like Keira so they might have a chance with them later. And the rest could fight so they could just make it back home to see Keira in her next movie.
 

edesignuk

Moderator emeritus
Mar 25, 2002
19,077
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jsw said:
We agree. Upstanding Christian soldiers could fight to defend the virtues of fine lasses like Keira from the godless heathens. Satanists could fight to protect hot chicks like Keira so they might have a chance with them later. And the rest could fight so they could just make it back home to see Keira in her next movie.
Now we're on the same page ;) :D
 

zelmo

macrumors 603
Jul 3, 2004
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Christian, Hindu, Muslim, Satanist....an individual's religion (or sexual pref or hair color, for that matter) should have nothing to do with whether or not they can or should be allowed to serve their country. As long as his rituals do not pose a threat to anyone else, and he is capable of/willing to follow the orders of his commanding officer, who cares?
 

Mr_Ed

macrumors 6502
Mar 10, 2004
443
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edesignuk said:
Such a sad thing that a man should be able to believe in what he chooses, but still be able to serve his country?

Honestly, religion already causes enough divides in the world, no matter what your beliefs, if you believe in your country you should be able to fight for it should you want to.
Absolutely right! 'Religion' should not be a measure of an individual's sense of patriotism, or his morals, or the more I think about it, pretty much anything else.
 

VIREBEL661

macrumors regular
Feb 24, 2003
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I'm kind of an expert on this :)... Satanism, as in the Church of Satan, as in Anton LaVey, is more akin to a form of humanism. The individual is all powerful - question all things - live in the here and now, etc. It uses the imagery to kind of represent that it is the polar opposite of a typical organized religion where you worship a god, gods, etc. Again, in this respect the individual is all powerful - and for the record animals (and even children also) are sacred. No harm should ever come to an innocent person, animal etc. The imagery is actually kind of the 'fun' part. It's just fun acting out rituals, etc - something that human beings need - a kind of dogma. But the reality is, it's a 'religion' of complete freedom, total tolerance, total expression, and indulgence.

I think this is what the person in the article practices. However, there are many misguided people that use the christian version of the devil to do horrible things. To somebody from the Church of Satan, these people are really just christians in disguise, as a 'real' Satanist would never live up to a christian explanation of what they believe. Am I making myself clear? It's basically saying that kids who do this stuff in the name of their favorite metal band or whatever are really doing what the christians say they should to be a devil worshipper, thereby being totally influenced and controlled by the christian church, which is the opposit of Satanism (there's no worship in Satanism - the individual is the highest power). Just my two cents. I want to say that these kinds of discussions end up with a lot of misinformation - and I'm so far impressed with everyone on this group not rushing to judgement. Live and let live I say!
 

VIREBEL661

macrumors regular
Feb 24, 2003
241
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jsw said:
We agree. Upstanding Christian soldiers could fight to defend the virtues of fine lasses like Keira from the godless heathens. Satanists could fight to protect hot chicks like Keira so they might have a chance with them later. And the rest could fight so they could just make it back home to see Keira in her next movie.
Keira is red hot. I would like to see a LOT more of her....;)
 

MarkCollette

macrumors 68000
Mar 6, 2003
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jsw said:
Well, since the primary focus of his religion is that one's ultimate goal should be self gratification, it seems like that might conflict somewhat with serving any other person or state....
Lucky for him, that the pesky duty of self-sacrifice is offset by the glorious joy of killing others. :rolleyes: