New Bush Illegal Immigrant inititaive

Chip NoVaMac

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Dec 25, 2003
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Just saw on CSPAN what IIRC was a speech by Bush today calling for news laws to stem the tide of illegal immigrants from Mexico.

One of the asspects of what I saw him speak on, was to send illegals not just back across the border, but back to the central Mexican countryside - to make it harder for the illegals to cross again. A good effort perhaps.

What bothered me is his call again to allow those in to the US to do jobs that that US citizens can not or will not take. Maybe we need to address the reasons that we have H1B visas and category of workers that we are willing to accept even temporary immigrant workers into this country.
 

zimv20

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Jul 18, 2002
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Chip NoVaMac said:
send illegals not just back across the border, but back to the central Mexican countryside
what? like they're ****ing cattle or something? bush really isn't the humanist, is he? sick ****er.
 

TheMonarch

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May 6, 2005
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He can choke on another pretzel. Gah! I hate his guts... Bastard! Anyways... The whole "They took our jobs" argument is stupid. Do whatever needs to be done to get the job done, and quick. I don't care who does it. If there are "Open spots" because legal citizens "won't take them", then I really don't see any wrong in filling the gap. People argue that they are a problem because, and I quote, "They come here and plop out a bunch of children and end up on welfare" and they don't pay tax... Whatever. I live in california, and this is the place with the largest concentration of illegal immingrants, yet it happens to be the wealthiest, most powerful state in the US, and the fifth largest economy in the world (Albeit, one of the worst education systems, but we are all to blame, not just a certain group) Now, I'm not saying we should open up the borders and let the world in, no, but people need to at least view this issue in perspective, instead of saying "They took our jobs"...
 

Chip NoVaMac

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Dec 25, 2003
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blaskillet4 said:
If there are "Open spots" because legal citizens "won't take them", then I really don't see any wrong in filling the gap.
At least for me the issue is that we don't have legal residents (native born and otherwise) since we re too comfortable to pay decent wages and offer decent working conditions for the hardest of jobs. The field workers that we have are the new "slaves" of this century. I noticed that you failed to address the H1B visa holders. Why not offer job training, or supplemental health insurance for many over 40 tech workers that are finding themselves replaced by H1B visa holders?

A country needs to take care of its own, before giving handouts to wealthy companies that lookout not for the country that they call home, but solely on their bottom line. Money changers in the temple if you tell me.
 

zimv20

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Jul 18, 2002
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Chip NoVaMac said:
Why not offer job training, or supplemental health insurance for many over 40 tech workers that are finding themselves replaced by H1B visa holders?
if the system is working as it was designed, then h1b workers wouldn't be displacing any US workers. if it turns out that workers are being displaced, then either 1) the US worker is incompetent, or 2) the h1b visa system is being abused.
 

Chip NoVaMac

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zimv20 said:
if the system is working as it was designed, then h1b workers wouldn't be displacing any US workers. if it turns out that workers are being displaced, then either 1) the US worker is incompetent, or 2) the h1b visa system is being abused.
I think it more of #2 IMO.

Too bad I didn't think of you for our MR gathering on Sunday night in Chicago. I feel bad now. Maybe on my next visit.
 

zimv20

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Chip NoVaMac said:
Too bad I didn't think of you for our MR gathering on Sunday night in Chicago. I feel bad now. Maybe on my next visit.
my sweatshirt is stained with tears. :)

no worries, i've got a class on sunday nights.
 

Dont Hurt Me

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Dec 21, 2002
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I just wonder why it took at Republican President and Congress 5 years to address the border problem? Could it be Iraq,Katrina,Rove/Cheney scandal. My guess is they are addressing it to divert attention. Its Good but years overdue. The Spinmasters are enaging this to spin away attention from all his other problems. A while ago the republicans/pres could have give a hoot.
 

tristan

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Jul 19, 2003
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I don't think the "take them back to central Mexico" thing is real well thought out. Frankly, I have no idea what to do with illegals once you catch them, but driving some family thousands of miles into Mexico and just kicking them out of the back of the bus seems a little cruel to me. Maybe there's some way to cooperate with the Mexican government and just give them a bus ticket home and have the Mexican govt make sure they get on and off the bus in the right spot. That would be safe and humane. If you could get the Mexican govt to pick up some of the cost of the bus tickets, maybe they'd help guard their side, I dunno.

Oh well, I'm probably dreaming trying to apply some rationality - immigration should be a well considered issue about the future make-up of our country's population and our relations with our neighbors. Instead, it's a knee-jerk "they're taking our jobs" issue.
 

skunk

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Jun 29, 2002
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tristan said:
I don't think the "take them back to central Mexico" thing is real well thought out. Frankly, I have no idea what to do with illegals once you catch them, but driving some family thousands of miles into Mexico and just kicking them out of the back of the bus seems a little cruel to me.
Ironically similar to Mugabe's technique for getting rid of unwanted people. Bus them out to the middle of nowhere and dump them.
 

mactastic

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Apr 24, 2003
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The only way we're going to make any headway against illegal immigration is to come down hard on the companies that hire them. You can bus all the immigrants you want as far as you want, but as long as there is a draw back they will return. Or new ones will come. It's simply capitalism in action.
 

Sdashiki

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Aug 11, 2005
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PROBLEM SOLVED:

Create a law where any and every employer MUST pay his employees a set wage. Including those who are illegal in this country. It is the responsibility of all employers to check whether you can work in the US, see the checkbox on all applications about work status?

Anyway. If you make it so everyone, legal or not, gets the same pay, then there is NO LONGER any incentive to hire migrant/illegal workers who would otherwise work for less.

In the southwest it is particularly rampant, in that any Home Depot parking lot is full of mexicans looking for day work. They get a couple of bucks for hammering some boards and go home after 12hrs. If they got minimum wage, then they would NOT be hired because a legal worker can do the same and the employer wouldnt be in trouble with INS. And if they were hired, they would at least not be bottom of the barrel poor, creating other problems like crime etc just to make ends meet.

In other words, pay EVERYONE the same, and the illegal immigration will stop. If they cant get work here, because you can no longer pay them $1/hr, they wont come here.

I have no problem with "immigrants taking our jobs (like southpark THEY TOOK OUR JAWBS!)" because they dont take MY job, they take someone elses who basically is only a slight step "above" an illegal because they were born in the US.
 

IJ Reilly

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mactastic said:
The only way we're going to make any headway against illegal immigration is to come down hard on the companies that hire them. You can bus all the immigrants you want as far as you want, but as long as there is a draw back they will return. Or new ones will come. It's simply capitalism in action.
True, but this approach isn't without problems. Many illegal immigrants carry counterfeit documents, which employers might well suspect. But I can understand why they don't want to be responsible for verifying their authenticity.
 

mactastic

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IJ Reilly said:
True, but this approach isn't without problems. Many illegal immigrants carry counterfeit documents, which employers might well suspect. But I can understand why they don't want to be responsible for verifying their authenticity.
Of course, and it's precisely because of these documents that the claim 'they don't pay taxes' is a lie. Of course they pay taxes -- they just don't get any of the benefits of paying taxes.

Look, we make bars responsible if they are knowingly taking fake ID's right? Police departments do stings on tobacco and liquor stores all the time. Why not step up enforcement on businesses that hire illegals? As righties are so fond of saying "We don't need new laws, we just need to enforce the laws on the books." Of course they're talking about firearms, but the principle is the same.
 

IJ Reilly

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mactastic said:
Of course, and it's precisely because of these documents that the claim 'they don't pay taxes' is a lie. Of course they pay taxes -- they just don't get any of the benefits of paying taxes.

Look, we make bars responsible if they are knowingly taking fake ID's right? Police departments do stings on tobacco and liquor stores all the time. Why not step up enforcement on businesses that hire illegals? As righties are so fond of saying "We don't need new laws, we just need to enforce the laws on the books." Of course they're talking about firearms, but the principle is the same.
I can't imagine how "knowingly" is proven. Some of these forgeries are supposed to be pretty convincing.
 

pseudobrit

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Jul 23, 2002
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We're in trouble.

We don't have a high level of education like Ireland to spark a tech tiger economy.

We don't have an old artisan class like Italy to dig its heels in and hold onto high paying manual labour jobs.

We could use an influx of cheap labour to reignite the manufacturing sector and get some of our jobs back from mainland China. I'd rather see two or three immigrants "take my job" than see it totally leave the country.
 

pseudobrit

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pseudobrit said:
I'd rather see two or three immigrants "take my job" than see it totally leave the country.
Matter of fact, I'm going to turn traditional supply-side economics on its head and endorse it.

More people earning money means there's a bigger national market, which means many areas of the service sector will see an boom, and middle management positions will multiply as well.

Trickle Up!
 

mactastic

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IJ Reilly said:
I can't imagine how "knowingly" is proven. Some of these forgeries are supposed to be pretty convincing.
Yeah that would be a tough legal hurdle on it's own. But set up an easy way for an employer to verify that the SSN is legal, and then 'knowingly' becomes 'didn't want to check'.
 

IJ Reilly

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mactastic said:
Yeah that would be a tough legal hurdle on it's own. But set up an easy way for an employer to verify that the SSN is legal, and then 'knowingly' becomes 'didn't want to check'.
Yes, right. I don't know if this is possible now but apparently not.
 

zimv20

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IJ Reilly said:
Yes, right. I don't know if this is possible now but apparently not.
dunno if anything's changed, I-9-wise, since 1999, but when i was doing HR stuff for my company, i had to do nothing more than fill out the I-9 and file it internally. i wasn't even required to make copies of the supporting IDs (passport, driver's license, whatever), though i did anyway.

it was a joke.
 

Dont Hurt Me

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Dec 21, 2002
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After years of doing nothing the president has changed his mind? so if they find them they send em back but what have they done about the border? Its a sad time in America when the Congress and President do nothing on the border during a...a....war? Good thing we have volunteers doing what the govt refuses. Good thing we have elections coming up so these guys can "Pretend" to be doing something. I wonder what the cost are returning a couple of million mexicans a year?

I wonder why the Govt doesnt grasp that if they arent allowed in they wont have all these other problems? I guess its easier to let em In then dream up another tax to pay for another program. Bush & Co are so phony.
 

mactastic

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Dealing with the border is only half the problem, as I've noted before. It's like locking up all the junkies and not going after the pushers -- no matter how many junkies you lock up there are plenty who fill their places.

Spending money locking down the border without going after the reason people come here illegally does almost nothing to stop the problem. What are you planning to do, build a giant wall from the Gulf to the Pacific? At what cost?

Although I suppose if you suspend Davis-Bacon and eliminate environmental reviews the cost could be lessened quite a bit. Hell, Mexicans would probably build it for a fraction of what an American worker would demand. Hey Senor, do you mind walling yourselves in over there?
 

Dont Hurt Me

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Dec 21, 2002
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mactastic said:
Dealing with the border is only half the problem, as I've noted before. It's like locking up all the junkies and not going after the pushers -- no matter how many junkies you lock up there are plenty who fill their places.

Spending money locking down the border without going after the reason people come here illegally does almost nothing to stop the problem. What are you planning to do, build a giant wall from the Gulf to the Pacific? At what cost?

Although I suppose if you suspend Davis-Bacon and eliminate environmental reviews the cost could be lessened quite a bit. Hell, Mexicans would probably build it for a fraction of what an American worker would demand. Hey Senor, do you mind walling yourselves in over there?
The Reason is Mexico is a F up mess, now are our elected officials suppose to represent the US tax payer or the mexican? Curent Bush policy says the mexican! Securing this border would be easy, just throw a little money add some blimps and a few thousand more border patrol. Problem solved. We should take back half that oil handout and use it on the border. With tech,blimps and real manpower this problem now stays in mexico.
Yes we need to have a better worker guess pass going on.

Im offended as a US citizen that my President and Congress have chosen to ignore this invasion! Dereliction of duty by both for not upholding our Constitution as they were sworn to do in the oath of office.