#nextfaketrumpvictim is trending on twitter

samcraig

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The fact that the hashtag #nextfaketrumpvictim is trending on twitter is a perfect example of the rape culture that exists and why women are afraid to come forward. While the timing may be called into question, the increasing reports is pretty typical given historical precedent (Bill Cosby anyone?). And there were already several reports well before the tape was shown.
 

Zombie Acorn

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Unless Trump drugged and raped someone why are we comparing it to the Bill Cosby incident? Rape typically does not have a statute of limits, assault will, any case brought against Trump will be frivolous at this point unless he raped someone.

Most of these women were probably enjoying the high life of hanging with a billionaire and now regret it.
 

yaxomoxay

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The fact that the hashtag #nextfaketrumpvictim is trending on twitter is a perfect example of the rape culture that exists and why women are afraid to come forward. While the timing may be called into question, the increasing reports is pretty typical given historical precedent (Bill Cosby anyone?). And there were already several reports well before the tape was shown.
Mmm I disagree. Strongly.
First of all, someone is innocent until proven guilty (which is different than prosecuted of course, but you know what I mean).
Second, it's the timing. It's highly suspicious. In two days you have women claiming all sort of stuff, including one which apparently was told by some staffer that "Trump doesn't like blacks."

Now, I have no way to prove or disprove their claim, but the attention to the matter is disproportionate, especially in the age of twitter where people are often compelled to say all sort of bullcrap to be in the spotlight. All are coming out three weeks before the elections? That is highly suspicious.
Bill Cosby is NOT a precedent for Trump, each case is on its own.
Now, said that, I hope that the authorities investigate the matter with all the seriousness of the case and I hope that if they found guilty they put him in a jail and throw the keys away. I have zero tolerance for those crimes, but I also don't want the "crying wolf" culture.
The movie "Reversal of fortune" comes to mind. Remember WHY Dershowitz defended Claus.
 
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citizenzen

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Unless Trump drugged and raped someone why are we comparing it to the Bill Cosby incident? Rape typically does not have a statute of limits, assault will, any case brought against Trump will be frivolous at this point unless he raped someone.
Not frivolous in the court of public opinion.
 

thermodynamic

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Not frivolous in the court of public opinion.
Ah yes, mob rule, or at least brainless populism. So, remember the good old days when the populists all loved slavery? Even though slavery is about as immoral and unethical and is the antithesis of freedom as it gets? Or even the segregation of the 1950s that took activist judges to make fast reforms on since incremental change wasn't doing the people much good at that time, was it?

Consider that.
 

samcraig

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The comparison to Cosby is not about the crime itself - it's about victims coming forward. And multiplying after the first reports.

There does need to be a serious investigation into these claims. As for guilt/innocence. I think that Trump is guilty of at least some of these charges. He's admitted as much - willingly or not. The evidence against him is overwhelming that this was his modus operendi. I'm not accusing him of rape. But sexual assault? In my mind, he's already confessed.

Just saw this too:

 

yaxomoxay

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The comparison to Cosby is not about the crime itself - it's about victims coming forward. And multiplying after the first reports.

There does need to be a serious investigation into these claims. As for guilt/innocence. I think that Trump is guilty of at least some of these charges. He's admitted as much - willingly or not. The evidence against him is overwhelming that this was his modus operendi. I'm not accusing him of rape. But sexual assault? In my mind, he's already confessed.

Just saw this too:

It's an alleged felony, it's up to the state to pick up the criminal case and evaluate the claims. No need for us to speculate.
 

yaxomoxay

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Do you believe Bill Clinton has raped?
My understanding is that he did some sexual misconduct, mainly related to the fact that he was in office.
Rape, as in something brutal, no. Until I see the proof or something incredibly convincing, he's innocent for me.
[doublepost=1476364358][/doublepost]
No need for us to speculate? This is an internet forum. If there's no speculation, how active would this board be? lol
Can't argue with that. ;)
 

oneMadRssn

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First of all, someone is innocent until proven guilty (which is different than prosecuted of course, but you know what I mean).
It's an alleged felony, it's up to the state to pick up the criminal case and evaluate the claims. No need for us to speculate.
Do you say the same thing to Donald supporters that speculate about Clinton's felony allegations for which she has not yet been found guilty by a court and jury?
 

yaxomoxay

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Do you say the same thing to Donald supporters that speculate about Clinton's felony allegations for which she has not yet been found guilty by a court and jury?
Yes. They tend to mix sexual misconduct (Monica anyone?) to alleged rape and putting everything in the same bucket.
Paula Jones' case is slightly different, however a settlement is not proof of guilt and in the big order of things should NEVER be considered as proof of guilt. I might say that I lean to say that he probably did what Jones said, but it's a totally a gossipy talk on my part, based on nothing, and I am the first one to admit it.
 
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oneMadRssn

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Yes. They tend to mix sexual misconduct (Monica anyone?) to alleged rape and putting everything in the same bucket.
Paula Jones' case is slightly different, however a settlement is not proof of guilt and in the big order of things should NEVER be considered as proof of guilt. I might say that I lean to say that he probably did what Jones said, but it's a totally a gossipy talk on my part, based on nothing, and I am the first one to admit it.
What about the emails scandal, Benghazi, body double, etc.? All mere speculation and conspiracy theories that have been blown way out of proportion
 
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yaxomoxay

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What about the emails scandal, Benghazi, body double, etc.? All mere speculation and conspiracy theories that have been blown way out of proportion
As someone in government (and former aerospace employee that had to deal with sensitive info), the "email scandal" to me is something serious.
Benghazi, that's a political evaluation.
Body Double: idiocy.
 
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oneMadRssn

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As someone in government (and former aerospace employee that had to deal with sensitive info), the "email scandal" to me is something serious.
Benghazi, that's a political evaluation.
Body Double: idiocy.
So of the following speculated and unproven allegations:
- Alleged rape / sexual misconduct: Unproven, let's not speculate, and innocent until proven guilty.
- Alleged mishandling of classified information: Serious.
 

samcraig

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Yes. They tend to mix sexual misconduct (Monica anyone?) to alleged rape and putting everything in the same bucket.
Paula Jones' case is slightly different, however a settlement is not proof of guilt and in the big order of things should NEVER be considered as proof of guilt. I might say that I lean to say that he probably did what Jones said, but it's a totally a gossipy talk on my part, based on nothing, and I am the first one to admit it.
Thought this was interesting about guilt/settling lawsuits:
 

yaxomoxay

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So of the following speculated and unproven allegations:
- Alleged rape / sexual misconduct: Unproven, let's not speculate, and innocent until proven guilty.
- Alleged mishandling of classified information: Serious.
The mishandling of classified information is not alleged, it's a fact.
There's a five-hour testimony by the FBI director on it. The fact that the FBI "can't prove intention" (Comey's words) doesn't cancel the fact that the event happened.
 
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oneMadRssn

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The mishandling of classified information is not alleged, it's a fact.
There's a five-hour testimony by the FBI director on it. The fact that the FBI "can't prove intention" (Comey's words) doesn't cancel the fact that the event happened.
If the crime requires an element of intent, then the crime is not proven. Likewise, the crime of rape (of which Trump is now accused) also requires an element of intent. If Trump is charged and tried, and the prosecution fails to show intent, Trump would also be found not guilty of rape. As a contra example, the crime of statutory rape (of which Trump might be accused of soon) does not have an intent element, and thus the prosecution would not have to prove any intent at all.

If you don't like how the crime statute is written, write your congressmen.
 

yaxomoxay

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If the crime requires an element of intent, then the crime is not proven.
That is a false statement which completely changes the meaning of the law.
The crime requires... the crime. The fact happened (and Comey clarified that indeed it happened)
Prosecution (and sentence) require intent (mens rea) and/or reasonable knowledge (for example negligence).
 
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If the crime requires an element of intent, then the crime is not proven. Likewise, the crime of rape (of which Trump is now accused) also requires an element of intent. If Trump is charged and tried, and the prosecution fails to show intent, Trump would also be found not guilty of rape. As a contra example, the crime of statutory rape (of which Trump might be accused of soon) does not have an intent element, and thus the prosecution would not have to prove any intent at all.

If you don't like how the crime statute is written, write your congressmen.
I just ran an unfortunate thought experiment when reading your post: How might Trump justify his alleged sexual transgressions when facing the issue of intent. Here's what came to mind. It is unpardonable and not meant to be funny.

"I didn't assault or rape anybody. I couldn't because I didn't intend to. See you have to have intent. I didn't intend anything like that. I intended for them to want my advances. I mean, I could just tell. Men can tell. You know. So I didn't intend any of that. I intended consensual." (yeah... I think that last sentence is how he might actually say it.)

I feel a little sick.



In regards to the timing. The minute Anderson Cooper pressed three times for a specific answer to whether Trump had done these things it and Trump gave a direct answer, "No, I haven't" then Trump himself invited this new narrative. He basically disclaimed the recording. Anyone he's ever met who had a "casual" and unwanted... interaction... just got a Trump-sized podium, assuming they were willing to take the public flogging. It's on that front that I believe the "Cosby effect" becomes incidentally important because this year women came out en masse -- many who were past the statute of limitations. While there has been public questioning of the veracity of their claims, the numbers began to overwhelm that stance. There was enough positive coverage that it set a precedent that right now Mr. Trump is testing in spite of his own best interests. And since he has been so casual in his, shall we say, manner for decades I doubt he'd remember many of the claims now being made and those likely forthcoming. It may make it easier for him to tell himself and his loved ones that he's innocent and that this is strictly political theater (yes, it's that too) but it won't make it convincing.
 
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