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Discussion in 'Politics, Religion, Social Issues' started by cube, Mar 18, 2017.
a little info past the link would help the post but
to keep UK health costs dwn my understanding is hospitals hire aspiring none UK nationals. Now that easy immigration is not possible across the EU countries they will have to hire british subjects. whatever.
just my thinking the UK is a tiny small country the size of Oregon cant compete for jobs, college professionals and opportunity. Serious; best of luck tho.
After reading the OP's article, the thread title should be "Brexit compels record numbers of EU nurses to quit NHS."
The URL says it all.
I preferred to make it a general NHS thread.
Your source says more.
I suggest everyone read the brief article to get a good understanding about what is happening here.. But for those who'd like a hint ...
With a population of 65M and the world's 5 largest economy the actual size of the country is not relevant. They will be fine.
No, the "5th economy" argument was actually in great part because the UK was one of the hotspots of the EU. The UK is not competitive anymore. Natural resources? Industry? May's master plan and only hope is apparently to create a tax haven, but that doesn't necessarily work in countries this big.
After Brexit referendum:
Guess they are just going to have to educate some of the people already in the UK instead of importing skills.
I doubt it. They are probably just going to get people from other places.
Then why not have said so in the original post? From the guidlines for the forum: "To initiate a discussion about an article, post a link to the article, quote a bit of it if you like, and include your own comments or questions so people know why you think it's worthy of discussion."
Basically you can get more or at least a more focused response to a thread if people have a clue why you created the thread in the first place. I mean with a thread title of "NHS" and then just looking at the words in the link, one is not sure what you hoped to get in the way of discussion really. Thee cheers for the nurses? Shame on them? Shrug?
All that aside, thanks for the thread. The uncertainties about unintended consequences of the Leave vote and its weird rollout continue. Specifically with respect to foreign nationals' uncertainty about their future in the UK, the linked story reminds me a little of what may be happening in the USA with respect to application of foreign students to study in the USA. Some schools have reported since the election that interest on the part of foreign students has declined due to their wondering if they would be welcome or even safe in the USA. This has colleges worried of course, since foreign university students bring more than $30 billion a year to the US economy.
The parallels are only rough, of course, but from the point of view of the foreign nationals, the concerns are similarly based in fear. For non-UK residents, there's doubt whether it's a good move now to remain as or to become a nurse in the UK's NHS. For non-US college applicants there's uncertainty about personal safety as they consider an American university educaiton. After all, the new President campaigned by disrespecting roughly half the country's diverse population, meanwhile seeming to encourage white nationalists to ramp up their xenophobic commentary and behavior.
In both cases it would seem the country's leader, on the one hand Ms May and on the other Mr. Trump, could set minds at ease by making clear statements relative to the respective foreign nationals' situations. So far, neither has chosen to do so. It seems pretty shortsighted to me in both instances. The NHS needs the nurses, and American colleges need qualified applications with the dough to plunk down in the bursar's office , the bookstores and around town as incidental living expenses. Both countries are paying what seems to me a steep price for their leaders' kowtowing to misplaced and possibly overstated nationalist sentiments.
I just saw Australia is experiencing a big increase in foreign students.
I forget who in the Tory government said this, but they were quoted as saying that EU nationals in the UK were 'human capital for negotiating'. In short, they're hostages, albeit with the reasonable purpose of trying to encourage sensible policies about UK citizens residing in the EU. However, I think the issue of people should be sorted out quickly rather than using them as bargaining chips in some sort of nationalistic game of chicken. A simple policy would be that EU nationals who entered the UK legally before the Brexit is completed, and who have not committed crimes, can stay indefinitely, unless their home country ejects UK citizens. In terms of social benefits, the EU nationals in the UK would get the same benefits as UK nationals in their home country. Problem solved.
Or at least the EU/UK problem. The other reason why nurses are leaving is that the Tories are trying to starve the NHS of resources. Trained professionals only want to do their job properly, and the most demotivating action one can take with them is to put them under so much pressure that they feel they can't do their job the way it should be done. Junior doctors (the ones that actually do the bulk of actual procedures and tests) have gone on strike because the Tory government is starving the system of resources and treating staff like indentured servants. Thus, it doesn't surprise me that EU nationals are leaving the UK NHS - why serve in a system that is controlled by mean-spirited idiotic jackasses?
EDIT: found link about EU residents in the UK being 'negotiating capital'.
I think there are more UK nationals living in the rest of the EU than the reverse, right?
Interesting question. Apparently there are 2.9 million EU nationals in the UK and 1.2 million UK nationals leaving outside of the UK in the EU (source).
OK, it seems the counting is not perfect, maybe that's why I think I saw the reverse claim once.
Also, from my experience, a LOT of Brits own a house and live in Spain only for part of the year, and have done so for decades, further complicating the count, whereas EU citizens live in the UK all year.
I must admit I was surprised by the numbers as well. I thought it was more even, for in some parts of Southern Europe one cannot swing a stick without hitting a UK ex-pat. If this goes pear-shaped and there is tit-for-tat expulsions of EU and UK citizens after Brexit, I wonder how many of the former UK ex-pats are old/retired and therefore will require more medical care than the young EU nationals ejected from the UK. I wonder if the UK NHS has contingency plans for this.
The numbers crunchers in hospitals are doing the same to nurses in the states... someone in my family bailed from that profession after too many rounds of her staff being treated like products in a meat market during each morning's staff meeting on how to allocate nursing resources to the various units. She ran a psych unit and finally said she was done having her unit raided for the sake of sticking "a nurse" on the orthopedics ward or the pediatrics ward etc.
What was she supposed to do when some security guard booted his job and she ended up with a patient inside armed with a knife and three out of six of her nurses trained in safe takedowns were up babysitting some kid with pneumonia or trying to remember how to adjust someone's leg traction setup? They had no answer on questions like that time after time, and she endured managing an incident of "knife!" which she figured ended safely on sheer luck. So, she resigned. Mind you her fellow managers felt the same way about lending and borrowing specialized nursing staff to put a warm body onto the org chart "just for today" as a routine way of conducting business in a hospital.
Guns or butter is not always the breadth of the issue. Sometimes it's about budgets for defense or public health care. And hey, maybe if the UK had put more into education on economics and civics, they might not have had a Leave vote to have to implement now anyway, who knows. I am not sure why so many countries have to experience near collapse of sectors related to "the common good" before they realize there's no substitute for government investment in it when private interests are not going to fill the bill properly. I'm sure the US has no record to hold up and show the way on that score.
Still looks pretty good to me. GDP isn't the most useful metric anyway.
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So import cheap labor so that it's a win for capitalists and fat cats?
UK is fine, and will continue to be fine.
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Could you describe the direction you'd like healthcare to take?
I found the third graph (A&E performance) very telling.
Definitely not westward (you know what I mean).