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No 970 in Powerbook yet; AGP 8x and HyperTransport in PMac

maradong

macrumors 65816
Mar 7, 2003
1,058
0
Luxembourg
:/ Hm. I m not sure if i shall not cancel my order for the 12 '' pb right now as it seems the pb with g4 will soon be un valued by the 970 pb...
 
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Bateman

macrumors member
Jan 23, 2003
32
0
TN
So what exactly is AGP 8x and Hypertransport??

I hope that the powerbook part is misinformed because i would really like to see these chips introduced in both the powermac and the powerbook at the same time. but i do think that the chances of them coming out in the xServe and Powermac are higher, as many others think also. The 17 inch is just too fresh, i believe, to become fairly obsolete.

Are the properties mentioned at the top included in the G4/G3 motherboards???
 
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barkmonster

macrumors 68020
Dec 3, 2001
2,126
12
Lancashire
Quick google translation :

Here in bulk, other information which we have just received: - the 2 mother charts of the Computers PPC 970 which arrive, will have AGP 8x and hypertransport. On the other hand, at the beginning of 2004, during the renewal of the range, the NCV express train will make its appearance. - As opposed to what one heard much, there will be no Powerbook PPC 970 before the second quarter 2004, where will arrive the PPC 970 0,09 microns. The current version with 0,13, heating too. Moreover the combination hypertransport/PPC 970 would give a definitely insufficient autonomy/

I wonder what the NCV express train is, a mistake in the translation ?
 
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idkew

macrumors 68020
Originally posted by maradong
:/ Hm. I m not sure if i shall not cancel my order for the 12 '' pb right now as it seems the pb with g4 will soon be un valued by the 970 pb...


huh? pb's will probably not have a 970 until much after the desktops. if they do, it will be an incomplete implementation. remember the powerbook 3400 and the first g3 powerbook? basically the same thing, and the g3 was not fully utilized.

go buy your 12" and upgrade to the rev. 2 970 powerbooks.
 
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cubist

macrumors 68020
Jul 4, 2002
2,075
0
Muncie, Indiana
The express train may have something to do with the hypertransport? Isn't that a really fast train in France? I wish we had them in US. (Maybe we'll get them now that there is so much uproar about airport security...)

AGP 8X is a definite good, tho, because that will allow us to use great new graphics boards like the ATI Radeon 9800. That is very, very good news!:D
 
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Victoriatus

macrumors member
Dec 25, 2002
55
0
Oulu, Finland
Cubist and maybe some others, sorry the tell you this but here goes---

This is a word to word quote from ATI's Sr. Business Development Manager Toshi Okumura's statement about 8xAGP in ATI's press meeting in Stockholm February 11. 2003:

"It's a bigger number for an uneducated customer. You're not going to see any performance difference between 8x and 4x."

...and I thought one survey discovered that Mac users are better educated than their Windows using fellows.
 
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Mr. Anderson

Moderator emeritus
Nov 1, 2001
22,561
0
VA
Makes sense about the Powerbook - I'm wondering, though about the .9 micron chips. If they're coming out in 2004, what sort of boost do you think they'll give to the PM line? Dual cores?

Imagine a dual core PowerBook.....that would be so very nice ;)

D
 
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Frobozz

macrumors 65816
Jul 24, 2002
1,136
73
South Orange, NJ
Re: No 970 in Powerbook yet; AGP 8x and HyperTransport in PMac

Originally posted by Macrumors
MacBidouille posts a few tidbits... reporting that the new 970 motherboads will utilize AGP 8x and Hypertransport, and that the Powerbook will not utilize the 970 processor until well into 2004.

This doesn't seem like much news. This has all been reported before. I agree with some of the other posters, AGP 8x isn't a big deal. HyperTransport is a big deal, but is almost expected to deal with the 970's. Overall, just more confirmation about what we already believe. I'm not shocked in the slightest that the PB's won't have a 970 until Jan. PB's have recently been introduced in Jan. anyway, and the G4 has some legs left for portables.

What I'd like to see is a credible report on the processor speeds. We all know the 970 is capable of 2.5 GHz (albeit very hot)... so does this mean that we'll have 1.6 1.8 2.0? Duals? I'm assuming the above in duals, but does anyone have a creible source that can give some details aside from my speculation? I'd assume that if they can crank out hot 2.5 GHz 970 now, that they will wait for the second batch of PM's to put in 2.5's. After all, the real world performance of these machines will be far surpassing their GHz number.
 
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AllenPSU

macrumors regular
Feb 24, 2003
168
0
USA
Originally posted by barkmonster
I wonder what the NCV express train is, a mistake in the translation ?

I wonder if the word "pipeline" or "bus" could be translated as Train.
 
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wymer100

macrumors member
Apr 16, 2002
53
0
8X AGP and hypertransport

One of the main reasons that you don't see the major benefit with going from 4X to 8X AGP is the large amounts of video RAM on cards. With this much RAM, the cards don't need to go back through the AGP to access the system RAM. If we only had 8Mb of vRAM, going from 4X to 8X would make a difference.

Has anyone heard if Apple is going to use the dual RAM sets to achieve the 6.4Gb/sec throughput? Memory bandwidth has been a major bottleneck over the past few years. Getting an ~5X increase in memory bandwidth might be huge. Especially combined with the increases in main bus and processor speeds.:)

I envision that the 970 (in powermacs) will be introduced at WWDC alongside 10.3. The 970 will be available sometime this summer with 10.2 and running in 32-bit mode. If you want to run with a 64-bit OS, you will have to upgrade to 10.3 or wait until Fall. Announcing a 64-bit environment at WWDC would give developers a leg-up in updating their programs for 10.3 in the Fall. Don't forget that there is precedent for major hardware announcements at WWDC. Wasn't the rev.A iMac announced there in '98? Pushing WWDC to June gave Apple enough time to get the new powermacs into production for at least an introduction.
 
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firestarter

macrumors 603
Dec 31, 2002
5,504
133
Green and pleasant land
Originally posted by barkmonster

I wonder what the NCV express train is, a mistake in the translation ?

Not really a mistake. It's assuming 'PCI Express' is a French phrase - and trying to translate into English. 'NCV Express train' therefore = 'PCI Express'
 
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3G4N

macrumors regular
Jan 24, 2002
123
0
3rd star to the right
Originally posted by dukestreet
...what sort of boost do you think they'll give to the PM line? Dual cores?

Imagine a dual core PowerBook.....that would be so very nice ;)

D

How many times must it be said?
The ppc970 has a single core.
No dual cores!

Repeat after me...

Dual Processor - yes.
Dual Core - no.
 
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wrylachlan

macrumors regular
Jan 25, 2002
102
0
No Hypertransport

The bit about hypertransport has to be bogus. IBM hasn't said anything about the 970 chip having onboard hypertransport and its a feature that if they had it they would be advertising. And to have a translator chip on the motherboard that translates the 970's bus into hypertransport is rediculous, because the main selling point of hypertransport is that it reduces the number of support chips necessary to enable multiprocessor setups. Going through a translator chip would also create a great deal of latency which isn't good.

sorry folks, no hypertransport.
 
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freundt

macrumors member
Apr 8, 2003
87
0
Seattle
I hope not

I hope they are wrong about the 970 in the powerbooks.
If you think about it, the only area apple is really competitive with the windows world is in the lap top arena. I think we all will agree that apple is now loosing ground in this arena to the new generation of mobile Pentium processors. I know everyone says it's about the os and not the speed - but a majority of consumers, and more importantly reviewers, *will* make a point about the speed of the chip. If apple let's the PowerBook lag at around 1-1.2 ghz then they will continue to loose what little ground they have gained. I know I haven't bought a PowerBook due to the fact I feel they are currently underpowered and will be *painfully* underpowered in two years. (considering it cost so much, it would have to last me at least 3 years.)

However, that being said, it seems to me like apple has no qualms about loosing ground - just look at the i-pod. Read any article in a financial or business magazine about the i-pod, and they will all state how much not having the lower end i-pods for sale is hurting apple. I know Apple is all about the big unveilings but-* bad analogy ahead *- but it feels like they are drowning in a sea, surrounded by life preservers, but are ignoring them, waiting for a big ol' cruise-liner to come along.

*Whew* I've lurked long enough and felt it was time for my first post.

anyways,
_F
 
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macrumors12345

macrumors 6502
Mar 1, 2003
410
0
Originally posted by cubist
Isn't that a really fast train in France? I wish we had them in US. (Maybe we'll get them now that there is so much uproar about airport security...)

You are thinking of the TGV, or "train à grande vitesse," which translates into something like "train at great speed." Revenue service is at 186 mph (300 kph); it also holds the world speed record (for a conventional train) of 320.2 mph (515 kph?).

Yes, it would be great if the US had real high speed rail that was comparable to the TGV, which is, quite frankly, the world standard (say what you want about their foreign policy, but those French really know how to build railroads!). But unfortunately we always want to do everything on the cheap over here, and in the end you get what you pay for (and sometimes not even that). Thus our transportation network is hopelessly congested and slow...

But yeah, I don't know exactly what it was that got translated into NCV Express Train...anybody here speak French?
 
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seamuskrat

Contributor
Feb 17, 2003
889
5
New Jersey USA
It is beginning to be clear from the variety of rumors that the 970 will appear as an option in the new Powermacs.
I think there is also good reason to suspect that the 970 will NOT appear in powerbooks just yet.
Figure Apple is getting some of the first production runs of 970's They have a fairly large margin of error in terms of heat when placed in a desktop. But I imagine the engineers at Apple would really like to see some real world action and maybe even a second revision of the 970 before implementing into a laptop model. According to the specs (and of course, this is STILL ambigous) the 970 produces less heat and consumes less watts than the G4 equivilent. What the spec sheets don't say(If you know where it may be stated- post a link) is what mature of heat sink, cooling source, etc. I can say that most early chip designs often have HUGE heat sinks and rather dramatic cooling on board for testing. At this late stage I am sure the folks at IBM have gone pst 'theoretical' temps and wattage estimates and have real numbers, but they have not yet published the definitive specs at the shipping speeds just yet. I am sure at the requets of Apple, IBM is keeping details underwraps for a bit longer until Cupertino is ready to announce to the world the new chip.
Back to the powerbooks. I have said before that redesigning a laptop does take mroe time and ffort than a desktop. Historically, Apple does new chipsets and motherboard architectures with desktops first. The argument about the G3 is a bit off, as the original G3 laptop was really a PPC variant rigged with a G3 an is not even OS X compatible. We have decent G4 laptops. With the newest chip from Moto (maybe) arriving soon, we will probably see some 1.0 to 1.2 Ghz speeds from a laptop. But I just do not see Apple having the enginneering abilities to base an entire laptop board on pre-production chips.
Also, I think with the first rev, we will be slightly less impressed with the G4 vs 970 performance per Mhz ratio. Many factors make up this performance difference and although I am sure the 970 will be a great chip in first run, it will not be like a '3 gig G4' by any stretch. So, the powerbook line will lag in performance but not so dramatically the sales will plumment. But that is all opinion, so we can only wait.
The obvious delay of an Al 15 inch is curious. I take that as one of two things. 1) I am wrong and it will have the 970 and be released in the next 4 months. *** 2) They know that the 970 fever is rising and did not want to release a 15 without a 970 prior to announcing the desktops. //*** The mere fact the 17 and 12 are relatively new and barely shipping in mass quantity leads one to think the 15 will NOt be the flagship and odd model out there with a 970. I think come year end we will surely see a migration of laptops to 970 but not immediately.

As for desktops and Hypertyransport. Apple has been involved with this for a while. It makes a world of sense to introduce it with a new chip. But from what I have read, the 970 shoul dhave onboard HT ability and that is not yet mentioned (again, maybe at Apple's request). So who knows yet. As for FW 800/APE/AGP8 I think those are givens for a new model accross the model line. If the new iPods really will have USB2 then we will probably see an option at elast for USB 2 on Macs as well. I know that at my local computer retailer its harder to fine large capacity drives with FW these days and USB 2 seems to be the 'choosen one'.

ANyhow, just speculation and opinion. Hopefully we will all be surprised and have it all.
 
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macrumors12345

macrumors 6502
Mar 1, 2003
410
0
Re: No Hypertransport

Originally posted by wrylachlan
The bit about hypertransport has to be bogus. IBM hasn't said anything about the 970 chip having onboard hypertransport and its a feature that if they had it they would be advertising.

Yeah, I am kind of skeptical about this too. But theoretically the chip doesn't need to have onboard hypertransport in order for the motherboard to use hypertransport, right? For example, the Nvidia NForce 2 motherboard for Athlon uses Hypertransport to connect the Northbridge and the Southbridge, but the Athlon certainly doesn't have any onboard Hypertransport links. So I guess in theory Apple could use it to connect other components (besides the 970), although I'm still skeptical, because it seems very un-Apple-like to be using all of these off-the-shelf technologies so readily... ;-)
 
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zigi

macrumors newbie
Apr 5, 2003
25
0
IBM Hypertransport

It seems doubtful that IBM would implement Hypertransport support in their own processors as they are not one of the HyperTransport consortium members; although Apple is. IBM is much more likely to make use of the RapidIO technology as they are one of the steering companies...

http://www.rapidio.org/about/list

Anyway, let's just hope they use something that can give them more of an edge.
 
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Death2PCs

macrumors newbie
Feb 18, 2003
17
0
CA, USA
Originally posted by dukestreet
Makes sense about the Powerbook - I'm wondering, though about the .9 micron chips. If they're coming out in 2004, what sort of boost do you think they'll give to the PM line? Dual cores?

Imagine a dual core PowerBook.....that would be so very nice ;)

D


Originally posted by 3G4N
How many times must it be said?
The ppc970 has a single core.
No dual cores!

Repeat after me...

Dual Processor - yes.
Dual Core - no.


calm down man... he said "imagine." he didnt say anything that is will happen.
 
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Machine translations...

Stupid machine translations.

Yes, that NGV train thing is a mistake. It's called machine translation.

It's really PCI express, aka PCI-X.

- Les 2 cartes mères des Ordinateurs PPC 970 qui arrivent, auront de l'AGP 8x et de l'hypertransport. En revanche, début 2004, lors du renouvellement de la gamme, le PCI express fera son apparition.

- Contrairement à ce que l'on a beaucoup entendu, il n'y aura pas de Powerbook PPC 970 avant le second trimestre 2004, où arrivera le PPC 970 0,09 microns. La version actuelle à 0,13, chauffe trop. De plus la combinaison hypertransport/PPC 970 donnerait une autonomie nettement insuffisante.

Human translation by me:

The two motherboards of the PPC 970 computers which are arriving will have 8x AGP and Hypertransport. On the other hand, at the beginning of 2004, during the range's renewal, the PCI-X will make its appearance.

Contrary to what one has heard much, there will not be any PPC 970 Powerbooks before the second quarter of 2004, when the .09 microns PPC 970 will arrive. The current version with .13 microns are too hot. Moreover, the HT/PPC970 combination would give a definitely insufficient autonomy.
 
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Cabrewolf

macrumors member
Apr 2, 2003
50
0
Dont trust them

I question any rumor site (maBeou?, and Macosrumors, etc) that use the excuse that the 970 is to hot for portables. It is cooler than the G4 and also smaller. I have yet to see a logical reason that the powerbooks will not have the 970's first or atleast at the same time as the powermacs.

One logical reason supporting 970's being in powerbooks first is that IBM may have run the first production run as slower 1-1.2 GHz chips. It is not unusual to run the first round with toned down speeds. 1-1.2 Ghz would not be fast enough for a powermac, but would be perfect for a powerbook.

Wolf
 
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G4scott

macrumors 68020
Jan 9, 2002
2,219
2
Austin, TX
Man... So many new people...

I'll start out by saying that the 970 will not make its debut in PowerBooks. It will be about a year behind the desktop. Apple just made major revisions to their laptop line, and with a 15" Aluminum G4 PowerBook coming out any day now, it'll be longer until we see 970's in laptops. The main reason is because the chip is so fast, it requires the mother of all motherboards (of Macs, that is...). It's a completely new architecture, and I'm pretty sure Apple will make sure it works well in desktops with no problems before putting it in a laptop. With a front side bus running at up to 900mhz, it wouldn't be a very pretty thing in a laptop, initially. Besides, not many laptops need a 64-bit processor. It's be a waste of resources, and it would cost a lot.

As for the 970 using HyperTransport, notice that the 970 supports up to 6.4gbps of data. Strangely enough, HyperTransport also supports this much at it's maximum performance. Remember that IBM said that the 970 would have a vector processing unit with 162 instructions, but didn't say it would be alti-vec until recently. The numbers are there for HyperTransport, now we just need to wait for IBM to say something. The thing about it is that IBM only make the processor, so IBM might not have to say anything about it. I imagine it would be up to Apple to decide about HyperTransport.

Although the actual chip won't heat up as much as a 1.4ghz G4, the chipset required to take advantage of the 970 would cause heat issues, and run down battery performance drastically.

I'd just like to see the 970's in desktops at up to, if not over 2Ghz. I know they'll rock, because they'll have an upgraded mobo, with superfast bus speeds, memory speeds, and everything. I wonder what kind of memory they'l use? If they use a 900Mhz FSB, they'd need some serious memory... I imagine they might downgrade it to a 400mhz DDR FSB, which would severly cripple the processor, but otherwise, RAM would cost too much...
 
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ffakr

macrumors 6502a
Jul 2, 2002
617
0
Chicago
Re: No Hypertransport

Originally posted by wrylachlan
The bit about hypertransport has to be bogus. IBM hasn't said anything about the 970 chip having onboard hypertransport and its a feature that if they had it they would be advertising. And to have a translator chip on the motherboard that translates the 970's bus into hypertransport is rediculous, because the main selling point of hypertransport is that it reduces the number of support chips necessary to enable multiprocessor setups. Going through a translator chip would also create a great deal of latency which isn't good.

sorry folks, no hypertransport.

Perhaps you should read up on Hypertransport a bit more. Hypertransport was NOT designed to interface between processors and chipsets. It is a technology that was designed to move data through the system. In a traditional system, you might think of HT as a good technology to tie the northbridge to the southbridge. AMD uses it to join the Media and the Graphics chips in the nForce board.

The Hypertransport consortium...

You don't know what you are talking about.
 
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