No Torture. No Exceptions.

Discussion in 'Politics, Religion, Social Issues' started by solvs, Mar 21, 2008.

  1. solvs macrumors 603

    solvs

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    #1
    NO MORE
    No Torture. No Exceptions.

    http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/features/2008/0801.torture.html
    You'd think this would be a given. Torture goes against everything we're supposed to stand for, hurts our standing in the world, and doesn't work. But it's still a debate for some reason. And yet:

    Report: Pfc. sorry and not about Abu Ghraib
    She doesn't regret doing it as much as she regrets it getting out? :confused:
     
  2. Iscariot macrumors 68030

    Iscariot

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    #2
    1. Ms. England's comments are appalling, but we should expect no less from her.
    2. I don't understand how anyone can defend torture for any reason. Is it not 2008? We in the first world (and I do mean we) should be holding ourselves to a higher standard.
     
  3. solvs thread starter macrumors 603

    solvs

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    #3
    9/11.

    Didn't say it was reasonable, but that's the excuse.
     
  4. scotthayes macrumors 68000

    scotthayes

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    #4
    You took the words out of my mouth. I was stunned at her attitude and there is no place where in the world for torture, the argument "they would do it to us" is complete ********, we have to live by moral standards, and one of those is that torture is totally unacceptable.
     
  5. Dont Hurt Me macrumors 603

    Dont Hurt Me

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    #5
    Lets not forget we have a president who is for torture, her orders came from higher up lets not forget this. Privates dont make these decisions. Bush,trampling on everything America stands for.
     
  6. Iscariot macrumors 68030

    Iscariot

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    #6
    Not to be too tangental here, but my mild dyslexia always rearranges your name to be "Scottyhaes" or "Scottyhayes". I JUST now realized it wasn't actually Scotty. Now I'm wondering how many other members names I'm messing up in my head?

    I didn't realize it was Lee Kohler and not Leek Holder under I noticed people calling him "Lee."
     
  7. scotthayes macrumors 68000

    scotthayes

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    #7
    I wouldn't worry about it, I get my own name wrong. I get called Scotty all the time which then starts the star trek jokes :mad:
     
  8. shikimo macrumors 6502

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    #8
    Good point: I think we have to go one step further than being shocked by her comments, and see her as a product of her training. She's not the bad apple who went too far; she's the model, the good soldier who not only does what she's told but believes in it...and the fact that she doesn't even see how wrong it all is shows us how deeply into the US military hierarchy this mentality reaches.

    Then again, does anyone have a survey on the percentage of Americans who really believe, 100%, that torture should never be used on anyone, ever, no matter what the provocation? I hate to post the worst-case scenario, but what if the muted protest to the anti-anti-torture veto means that people don't think it's that horrible? I really hope that's not true, but in my little world I do know otherwise reasonable Americans who think that 9/11 means 'anything goes' when it comes to preventing another attack.

    Never mind that--as England herself pointed out--the practice of torture motivates the enemy, and forget its proven ineffectiveness as a means of extracting information...fear is too often bigger than logic and humanity.
     
  9. it5five macrumors 65816

    it5five

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    #9
    I too read that article about Ms. England, and sort of felt she was more sorry about getting caught/having the photos published than she was for committing torture. And then she turns around and blames "the media" for the whole affair, as if they should have not leaked any photos and let the torture continue.

    She needs psychological help.
     
  10. Gelfin macrumors 68020

    Gelfin

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    #10
    Okay, look, I'm going to take an unusual turn here and speak from the gut: I get the argument where people, particularly, say, people who have just watched a full season of 24, might think that threats demanding torture are being plotted in every abandoned warehouse. I mean, I watched a full season of House over DVD in a few days once, with the bizarre result that when an acquaintance paused to sneeze during a conversation, a tiny irrational little part of my brain became alarmed, convinced she was about to start jetting blood out of her eyes or something.

    Sure we know rationally that people will say anything they think will stop you from whacking them in the chest with a PVC pipe full of sand again and you have no way of knowing if it's true or not, and it doesn't take more than five minutes' honest reflection to realize the "ticking time bomb" scenario is wildly improbable, but our gut still tells us it could happen, and if there's also a little thrill of visceral evil we get from the idea of really brutalizing an enemy, well, we've got our gut rationalization set up, so who's to know?

    So, look, here's the deal: If a case arises where you honestly think a jumper cable to the jimmy is necessary to save the world, by all means, Mr. Bauer, go ahead. You're going to anyway if the stakes are really that high. HOWEVER, torture is still illegal at all times and under all circumstances, and the penalties are to be high: life-destroyingly high, as they should be considering the gravity of what you're contemplating doing to another person. All agencies that may end up in this position are to establish policies of meticulously logging prisoner treatment by individuals not bound to the same chain of command, and immediately surrendering any personnel engaging in any mistreatment of prisoners for arrest and trial. If you saved the world, tell it to the jury. Maybe they'll recognize what a hero you are and let you off with time served, and if not, well, isn't saving the world worth taking one for the team? I mean, if the situation really is so dire, you'd kind of have to, wouldn't you?
     
  11. mactastic macrumors 68040

    mactastic

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    #11
    Pretty much sums it up. Given the opportunity, I might just kill someone who harmed my kid, and under the right circumstances, I would be willing to spend the rest of my life in prison for the privilege of doing so.

    But that doesn't mean I think murder should be legal.
     
  12. MacNut macrumors Core

    MacNut

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    #12
    Well Palmer did tell Bauer to use what ever means necessary.
     
  13. solvs thread starter macrumors 603

    solvs

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    #13
    That's the problem. It's who and what those who defend such practices are talking to. Fear, and the fearful. Hiding behind, ironically since it's against everything we stand for, patriotism. It's a terrible tactic that they should be called on. The way McCain, who was tortured, used to. No longer sadly (it's still such a shame, I used to respect him so much more). But it's the same way they're getting Obama. Fear. And it works unfortunately. That's why they keep doing it. With so few fighting against it too, romanticized in media, it becomes almost acceptable. After 9/11, anything went for a lot of people. For some, still does.
     
  14. solvs thread starter macrumors 603

    solvs

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  15. Dont Hurt Me macrumors 603

    Dont Hurt Me

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    #15
    Its the old we simply accuse you therefore your guilty by accusation. Its why we have the constitution and laws. What happened to our own Laws? Broken by our own President. Vote republican? you got to be kidding.

    This is just the reason we have the Constitution, or rather had before BushCo abused Signing statements making his own law up as he goes. Lawyers should be jumping all over this one.
     
  16. KingYaba macrumors 68040

    KingYaba

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    #16
    How do we, the United States, safely extract credible information in an act of defense from adversaries without using torture? This question puzzles me. How can torture guarantee accurate information? But then again, why use it if it "doesn't work?"
     
  17. skunk macrumors G4

    skunk

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    #17
    Well, according to all credible sources, torture does not do the job, so you'll have to strike that one off the list for a start.
    Because it makes the torturer feel that he or she is "doing something". It's as simple as that.
     
  18. KingYaba macrumors 68040

    KingYaba

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    #18
    How do we exploit a man who is willing to sacrifice life and limb for "72 virgins?" Do we up the ante and provide 80? :D Come to think of it, the seductress may be a useful tool. One could assume these men are sexually frustrated, no?
     
  19. skunk macrumors G4

    skunk

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    #19
    You'd be hard-pressed to find 8, let alone 80.
     
  20. Gelfin macrumors 68020

    Gelfin

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    #20
    Regarding "the enemy" as an inhuman, implacable juggernaut unmoved by any form of humanity we are capable of understanding is part of the problem that both legitimizes torture (a hard thing to do to someone whose humanity you recognize) and makes it seem like the only viable option.

    Torture continues to be proposed as an option because there's a part of our animal nature to which it feels satisfying to hurt someone who has been put into this "not human" category. We imagine what this monstrous other might do to us given the chance, we imagine how much we ourselves might endure before breaking, and then we convince ourselves that these are the only terms on which we can relate to an enemy who, furthermore, deserves no better.

    It is an instinctively compelling justification that does not bear out in practice. The results are unreliable, and many is the case that an interrogator becomes so enrapt with the process of inflicting pain on an uncooperative enemy that he forgets the information he is supposed to be collecting altogether. The excuse of intelligence gathering quickly falls by the wayside in favor of the mere savagery that really motivated us all along.

    Traditionally much more success in interrogation is achieved by attacking the enemy's ability to perceive you as a monster. Do you think post-WWII allied interrogators conversed and played chess with Nazi war criminals because they sympathized with Naziism? Putting a rifle butt into the face of someone you find revolting is the easy way out. Swallowing your revulsion and reaching out to him is much harder.
     
  21. Shotglass macrumors 65816

    Shotglass

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    #21
    At least around here.
     
  22. Dont Hurt Me macrumors 603

    Dont Hurt Me

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    I wonder if George gets to do it himself with Cheney watching?:D ( Torture that is)
     
  23. solvs thread starter macrumors 603

    solvs

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    #23
    Do we really need to go over this again? No offense, but you can't tell me that should be the first place we go to, and even if it's the last ditch effort, what makes you think it will work? It doesn't work. Anyone who knows anything about the subject, every expert I've read, says it's not reliable. Good police work is.

    It doesn't, but that should still be the second reason to be against this, not the first.

    To make it seem like we're doing something when we otherwise can't, especially not in a quick enough time frame.

    You'd be surprised what works that isn't torture.

    Only this kind:

    [​IMG]

    Talk about torture.

    I've read accounts of investigators simply being genuinely nice to the person and getting what they want out of them. These are desperate people here, who knows how bad off they are. I'm not saying we should put them up in the Hilton and give them mani-pedies, but I'd rather not prove them right about what they already think of us. I'd rather we show them what we really stand for. Or are supposed to. Giving them due process, providing them rights, even a candy bar, can do wonders. Doesn't automatically mean we let them loose or anything, especially if we can actually prove they did something or were going to do something, but we can do better than we have been. Kinda hypocritical to complain about them doing things to our people as we do things to theirs, and worse, to people who have nothing to do with anything.

    I for one don't like torturing anyone, but I really don't like the idea of torturing innocent people, while crying wolf... I mean, terrorism, to justify it.
     
  24. shikimo macrumors 6502

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    #24
    This is a good point that I hadn't thought of in terms of the torture question (I never really got past 1) it doesn't work, and 2) we signed a treaty saying we wouldn't do it anyway). It's a bit like the well-known anti-death penalty argument that says if you do it to even one innocent person--which is unavoidable because people make mistakes--the ethical implications become even more severe.
     
  25. solvs thread starter macrumors 603

    solvs

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    #25
    Still uncomfortable even doing it to the guilty because we're supposed to be better than that, but yeah, even worse when we do it to the innocent.

    Seems some of it may have come from the top too:

    The Green Light
    I know I feel safer.
     

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