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Discussion in 'Politics, Religion, Social Issues' started by Michael Goff, Jun 24, 2016.
It's not legally binding but would cause a huge constitutional crisis if the government didn't act on it.
The only possible option now appears to be a petition for another referendum based on the Brexit lies. If it gets enough signatures then parliament will have to debate it and as Parliament is overwhelming in the remain camp then it might be possible. But I highly, highly doubt it. We made our bed then **** in it and now we have to sleep in it.
Can't the MP's vote for a general election to be held before the next and then run on a "Pro-EU" platform. If they win, they could argue the election mandate topped the referendum?
Cameron has already announced his resignation. I doubt his party will allow him to renege on that.
I read that one-third of Labour voters voted for Brexit. My understanding is that Labour voters have other options. So to go against the will of the voters would be suicide for the Labour party.
So what you are saying is that one-third of British voters are idiots. You know it was that thinking that got European elites into this mess to begin with.
God how I wish it was just one third, then we wouldn't be in this mess.
Considering half the voters voted to leave the EU and BOTH political parties supported staying in the EU. I don't think many MP's want an election right now.
Going against the will of the people is never a smart move, even if you do think they are all idiots.
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And have you stopped for a moment to wonder why?
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Very much I have. Years of governments falsely blaming the EU for internal problems, rampant lying from the leave campaign, years of austerity- there are many, many reasons.
However one simple fact remains that leaving is bad for the UK and we have already felt it and it's going to get a lot, lot worse.
First comes denial, then anger, followed by bargaining and depression, before the ultimate acceptance.
Finally, Scotland can free itself of english tyranny!
Ah hell. Why does Cameron stop at Oligarchical totalitarianism? Go full metal jacket and leave it up to a singular Dictatorial decision-maker….. let the most powerful man in all of Britain decide …. Elizabeth II!
So your government was falsely blaming the EU for internal problems yet advocating that Britain remain in the EU, correct? Do you see a credibility problem here?
Why did you have to have years of austerity? Is it perhaps you spent money you didn't have to spend? If so, what did you spend the money on?
Is it possible that this was just as much a referendum on the British government (all political parties) as much as it was a referendum to leave the EU?
Tell more than half of the nation that you are ignoring the vote and doing whatever you like, that would end well.
The petition as I predicted is now live and already has enough votes to be debated.
How seriously it is taken will now depend on how many signatures it garners.
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There's definitely a credibility issue that is for sure both Tory and Labour have used the EU as a scapegoat time and time again and the actual level of understanding in the UK of how much power the EU has is vastly warped.
The leave campaign have made this about immigration when that is not the issue at all. They have done a Bush - you're either one of us or not. Sadly a lot of people have fallen for it and now we all pay the price. We have turned an opportunity to improve the EU into a national suicide.
Well, we can't have direct democracy. That would suck for miniorities.
Question for the poms here to refresh my memory.
Who or what branch in government in the UK ratifies treaties? I'm asking to see if it is or isn't similar to the "advise and consent" power the US Senate has.
So are Tories the British version of Trumpian cocksplats?
Hopefully it's treated with the complete derision it deserves.
Signed by a bunch of self-entitled whiners who won't accept they've lost the argument. Please grow up.
Well, apparently it was the issue. According to polling this was the second most important topic after democratic control.
Even as a someone who firmly believes in remain I'm not sure what to think about the petition. I think it's clear today that a lot of people voted leave and now regret it and that its been shown today that the leave campaign has based its whole argument on lies which it never intended to follow through with.
Does that mean we should have another vote? Probably not. As referendums aren't legally binding, does this give parliament (which is overwhelmingly pro remain) a chance to get us out of the ******** we're now in with at least some sort of legal argument? Yes it does. Will it happen? I seriously doubt it.
This wasn't a vote for a political party or set of policies. There was never any 'following through' - Farage has no more power today than he did last week. It was a vote for In or Out. Deciding who then implements and how they implement is another decision for the people, but implement they will.
So Sky news found a couple of numpties to interview who say they've changed their mind. That doesn't invalidate the result. And woe betide any politician who ignores that result. It's already a damning inditement of our politicians that the people have voted to oppose all main political parties.
We're exiting. The wheels are in motion and it will now happen. Get used to that.
Lets be very clear on this:
The "Brexit" campaign won because most of the people voting in favor of it didn't really understand the issues.
Lets take just one of them: The British National Health Service (NHS) is seriously underfunded. Its still pretty good as far as national health system go; but it has problems with regards to wait times; overcrowding; and staff turnover.
Brexit people would like you believe its because Polish and Rumanian immigrants are flooding into the UK and sucking up all the good healthcare. But thats simply not the case. Whats sucking up all the good healthcare in the UK is the massive number of people living to 80, 90 years of age and beyond.
The reality is that the Polish (Rumanian, Italian, etc.) immigrants coming into the UK are overwhelmingly young. And that their contribution to British income and social security taxes far outweighs their demands on the NHS or any other part of Britain's social services system.
If Britain wanted to solve the NHS funding crisis, it should have done so. Instead, the Conservative Government of David Cameron lied and stalled on the issue.
Now they (and the rest of the world) will have to deal with the consequences.
Luckily Farage has zero power and long may that remain the case!
You're right remain lost and leave won and we are now on our downward spiral towards leaving. I totally accept that however depressing and terrible it is.
But that does not mean that things might not change. I strongly doubt they will. But the damage already has been huge, there are hundreds of thousands of people that either didn't vote or voted Brexit thinking it would never happen - I mean who could think we'd actually be that stupid. But it did.
Again I don't think the petition will get anywhere BUT if it does amass a few million signatures then Parliament might decide to rethink. Especially if things keep getting worse.
But yes, now we are out - we have given up our status and it will be a mammoth task to reel us back from this precipice.
Quoting myself here, I know, but it's important why I'm asking this question.
It is my understanding that the powers of the Monarchy are severely limited in relationship to government in the UK; as in, The Crown is the head of state, but not the head of government. And some of those limitations started a long time ago (I want to say it was part of the Magna Carta, IIRC). For all intents and purposes, outside of being a figurehead, The Crown is pretty much "hands off" when it comes to government...
.. except for one thing, which could make all of the issues from the fallout of Brexit be dumped in their lap, and make it "hands on". IIRC, the Crown does have the power to single-handedly make and ratify treaties. The EU and the UK could make/enter into a treaty that restores all of what was lost in the fallout of Brexit (free movement, policies, resolution for Gibraltar, Scotland, etc.), in which the Crown would have to get involved to ratify.
Should that occur, and actually reverse everything that would fall out because of Brexit, is there any provision in UK law that makes treaties come under review of Parliament, or can the Crown unilaterally make and ratify a treaty without any counsel from Parliament?
Personally, I hope we proceed with this. My own view is that the EU is soon to fail anyhow, and by leaving at this point we're going to dodge a bullet.
I don't think this petition will do anything. We know there are 11 million people who voted Remain... because we just had a referendum!! Even if half of them logged on to the petition site, why on earth should they be given a second crack at an argument they already lost?
If you want to pin your hopes on one scenario where this could be overturned, I think that the only real mandate to do that would be through another vote of the whole population - in this case a general election.
So... Cameron has resigned and will be out in October.
There's a moderate likelihood that his successor will call an election in order to get a mandate to proceed.
A winning coalition of 'Remain' parties at that point could legitimately stop the process.
This is very interesting. I also read (or perhaps misread) that (a) The Parliament can vote what it wants, regardless of referendum vote (which you touched on), and (b) the House of Lords, through procedures I don't understand, can delay any vote up to a year via arcane processes - simply put (as my hungover brain understands it), they have the power to deny, but not pass any measure though Parliament. Any current British nationals- feel free to correct me as needed.
I thought it was more like 16m vs 17m - but its immaterial really, remain lost.
I agree that I think we're now out and nothing will change that. But I would not be so quick to dismiss this petition.
Cameron is out, Corbyn is hanging on by a thread and a general election might be on the cards. But our hand might be forced before that. If things start going really bad and the EU keeps hammering us to invoke article 50 and this petition gets say 20m signatures then who knows?
Again I don't believe it will happen, I think we're now out and will have to live with it and justify it to our descendants. But it is what it is. The saddest part is the very people that voted to leave will be the same people hit the hardest because we've left and they don't even realise it.
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Right now that's all moot. Technically the monarch can do a few things including entering into treaties and refusing to sign acts of Parliament but the Queen won't.
The monarchy could not withstand a constitutional crisis right now and it's the last thing we need. So yes she may have the technical power to do so but by doing so she would sign the end of the monarchy and she does not want that to be her legacy.
Sadly we have to accept that this was a referendum that should never have been held, has been very badly managed and where for really the first time in British history that US-style politics has won. Now we just need to bend over and take the pain.