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Discussion in 'Politics, Religion, Social Issues' started by McToast, Dec 18, 2003.
This is flash. It also has audio.
Ya i saw this a few weeks ago
the nra sickens me
when i first looked at the nra in general, i thought they were psychopaths but then i realized that they had a view of the right to bear arms with a right wing point of view
now when a gun expert poster here pointed out to me the difference between the nra and the gun owners of america, who are opposed to the nra and even more right wing, then i realized that the thinking in the goa bordered on mentally ill/paranoid thinking and the nra looked like a voice of reason
when i read about how the gun owners of america were opposed to the patriot act and gwb based on ultra right wing thinking...yes, that's possible even though it's bathed in extreme paranoia, then i realized that the nra was really much more moderate by comparison... i can't believe i would defend the nra so but take a look at the gun owners of america's beliefs and you will see what i am talking about
some republicans can come across as off the scale to me at times but when i look at a right wing dictatorship, then the gop person does not look so bad...when i hear some rant of an ultra left winger, it may sound bad, but not compared to some left wing dictatorship (which is not much different than a right wing dictatorship), then the left wing democrat does not sound too extreme
So the NRA is good because some people are worse?
Maybe this is a bit too far fetched for me, really. The NRA might have some pretty nice folks as members, but some of their issues are rather ****ed up (as seen on this flash movie) and can hardly be defended.
even though i am a gun control proponent, i think it is important that we have the right to bear arms...i don't have any guns and i cannot see a need to have one where i live and where i grew up
charlton heston gave the nra a bad name and he kind of seemed to go off the deep end in his views and i don't think he represents the views of most gun owners...perhaps his alzheimer's got in the way of rational thinking
While i can see the need to own a hunting rifle in _some_ places, i cannot see the use of MP's or assault rifles in any place i can imagine. There might be a hot debate about if there should be concealable weapons (Pistols) or not, but MP's and Assault Rifles...
I want a Phalanx.
Would be perfect for duck season.
Speaking of guns, I wonder where Desertrat went.... I hope his cancer surgery went ok.
I believe that guns only belong in the hands of police and military.
Our constitution guarantees otherwise. But that's 'cause we're paranoid that guns are the only thing keeping our polititians honest! (sarcasm very much intended)
I wondered about that too. I'm sure he'd be in on this debate if he was lurking around.
Anyway, my biggest beef with the NRA is the lies they tell their membership about the Second Amendment.
when there a a few cases of assault weapons or shotguns used in mass killings by a psycho, the body count is still small
the worst killer, which does not make the news nationally, are handguns
assault weapons were made for war to defend one's troops, shotguns were designed for hunting, but handguns were designed to sneak up on a person/people, or go into an area where one could looks unarmed, and kill people...it is essentially a murder weapon and countless thousands of americans, many innocent lose their lives from this most devious weapon every year...i think it's ok for people to have rifles and non sawed off shotguns, but there is no reason for assault rifles which are not a huge threat to society, but handguns with their concealability should be outlawed gradually and i cannot see anyone besides the cops and military who need a "sneak up and kill" weapon like a handgun
i like lynard skynard's song saturday night special becuase if addresses the issue of handguns in general and like they say, it's good for nothing
Mr. Saturday Night Special/
He's got a barrel that's blue and gold/
He ain't no good for nothing/
'Cept puttin a man 6 feet in a hole.
Thanks for inspiring me to go find my old Skynard albums!
Actually they are also useful for self defense purposes. I haven't seen a holster yet that would give me as quick of access to a shotgun as exist for pistols (or handguns if you are into the language of debate being important cough cough death tax).
i know that a pistol can be used for self defense but when i watch a true life cop show or recreation, most cops get killed by handguns if they are attacked by a firearm because they couldn't see it and look at most footage of bank robberies where the robber has a pistol and is able to go into a bank, stay there and size things up, not get detected, and then at the last minute take everybody by surprise
and the major body count is what i fear most of from handguns...it's godlike power in a small concealable weapon and it brings out the worst in criminals and makes it too easy to shoot someone up close...where at that point it does not matter how good a shot the shooter is or what the caliber of the bullet is
assasins find the small .22 caliber their favorite weapon because the pistol is small, it does not kickback as much offereing the shooter to get in more shots accurately at close range...and a .22 at close range in the head or thru the heart is no less deadly to the victim than getting run over by an elephant seal or 18 wheeler truck
Agreed jef, guns can be used for all those bad purposes. But you can rob a bank with a toy gun or your finger sticking through your jacket almost as effectively.
AFAIK, the assasians favorite weapon is a single shot .22 with a silencer. Apparently it's nearly silent. Not good if you need a second shot, but if you're an assasian, you really shouldn't need 2 shots.
I don't want to see guns taken away, but we do need to find a way to make gun crime more solveable. It should be easy to trace a gun to a person so it becomes an exercise in futility to use a gun for evil.
Actually hand guns were made because long guns were cumbersome to carry around on your person. Hand guns offered a (generally speaking) lower powered, less accurate but more convient secondary firearm to carry. This was very imporant back in the single shot days so you wouldn't be defenseless while you were reloading your long gun. It is also much faster to draw a pistol than it is to sling a rifle off your back and bring it into the fireing position.
And there is nothing devious about firearms. Their opperation and safe use is pretty straight forward and mostly common sense.
Reducing the amount of firearms the public can legally own will do little or nothing to effect the crime rate. The criminals who use guns in their crimes have gotten that firearm illegally 8 or 9 times outta 10. So, no matter what laws you pass, or bans you put in place the vast majority of the criminals will still have their guns.
Whales, England, and Australia all have tight gun control laws and they all have some of the highest rates of break-ins and crimes against persons in the industrialized world (higher than the US). The rate of gun crime in England is steadily on the rise even though gun control laws have become more and more restrictive.
And on the flip side, basically every adult male in Switzerland owns atleast one firearm and the Swiss crime rate (especially gun related crimes) is incredibly low.
If you want to reduce crime look to social and economic problems, not to inanimate obects.
And, kinda OT, but the assasians favorite weapon is whatever fits the situation. It could be a sniper rifle, a pistol, a bomb, poison, piano wire, etc.,.
It's quieter and easier to suppress also.
Someone else has been playing Hitman 2, eh?
i am reading about the delta force, us army, right now...it was thought by some military units that the pistol was less accurate, less powerful, less range, etc, but they have shown that in no way is that the case with proper training
a .45 caliber bullet, or any caliber, has the same range as a similar counterpart bullet no matter what type of a gun it is shot from...one has to realize that the concealability of a pistol is its greatest strength...and where some people who use it in a wrong way get incarcerated by the government, but some elite special forces units like the delta force operators get paid a salary by the same government to learn how to kill with pistols and due to their covert nature, a pistol is the perfect killing weapon for a perfect killing machine
make no mistake about it, a handgun was invented for its ability to kill humans at close range and its concealability made sure to that fact that the shooter could get close
now, here's an interesting issue...what constitues a handgun?...and what is too small and perfect to conceal?
i just know from the many guns i have come across *i used to be a used and vintage guitar collector and many of the instruments i looked at were from dealers who often carried handguns, i know that there is no reason for a handgun so small that it could be concealed in the hand of a reasonably big person
like many people, i have to admit, i can appreciate the craftsmanship and the small guns to have a very comfortable and utilitarian vibe to it...i have shot long barreled firearms and they had a reasonable feeling of power like a good tool, but a handgun has a certain magical aura around it and the pricetags also seem to reflect that on the higher priced handguns vs. long barreled firearms
now what do you think a person needs with a gun that small? for hunting???
Speaking in generalities a rifle is more powerful and more accurate over longer distances. Even shooting the exact same ammo a rifle will be more accurate than a pistol. Generally speaking the shorter the barral the short the effective range of the firearm. Also, bullets for rifles are typically longer and more aerodynamically shaped (pistol rounds tend to be short and fat in comparison) and the shells tend to be larger in order to hold more powder (this will propel the bullet faster and farther). There are more factors to a bullet than just it's calibur. I tried shooting .22 shorts out of my semi-auto pistol once (it takes .22 long rifles) and that wasn't too fun. The .22 short fit in the clip and fired fine, but it didn't have enough powder to produce enough gas to operate the slide. Needless to say it didn't take long for me to switch back to my box .22 LR.
And a pistol is far from a "perfect killing machine." There are situations where pistols excel, and their are situations where pistols come up lacking.
LOL, I assume you mean 'Wales'.
* see above post.
The crime rate may be quite high but the amount of people actually killed by guns is far lower than in the US, but I agree that you need to stop the culture of fear in the US and stop people from needing guns for self defense.
This all reminds of a film I saw the other night on Channel 5 called 'Betrayed' with Tom Behringer in it, anyone seen it? It wasn't that good but interesting subject matter.
pound for pound, in the hands of almost any human, and for its size, and within the statistics of crime...there is no more perfect killing mechanism than a handgun
even in the hands of the most able people, a handgun can be dangerous...sometimes it's the gun but sometimes (usually) it's the person...when i worked for the cia, i knew a man who was exquisitely trained for his job but i did not trust the man around firearms when it came to a certain personal spat he had with a high profile local official..long story there
in other countries, when people get into heated arguments, sometimes somebody gets beat up or stabbed and in most cases, the victim lives...in the united states, a lot of those arguments translate into somebody getting shot by a handgun...a rifle or shotgun is too unwiedly and the time it takes to use it, point it, etc will give the split second of time it takes for a person's judgement to kick in...a handgun can be used almost instantaneously
south of where i live in los angeles, road rage has gotten so out of control and with the extreme amount of traffic there with a highway system that did not project the massive growth of this city, america's second largest, there is a lot of congestion...and at the same time, big cities bring big crime and besides the criminals carrying handguns galore, the regular citizen has handguns...the factors there lead to a perfect recipe for people getting out of hand with road rage...in the 90s it got so severe that people were mounting bullet proof glass in their cars
about perfect killing machines...where i live, there is a military base where a lot of military intelligence, navy seals, and army delta force get their language training...and over the years being for civilian civil service, plus living next to the base, i have befriended many a special forces soldier...and these people are paid, although not very well, to be able to use a pistol very effectively as a killing machine...one bullet from a pistol in the head, throat, or chest will most likely kill or seriously injure a person...they are trained to do something called a double tap...two shots which will hit its target in one of those three areas which will, with an almost 100 percent accuracy, kill the person who gets hit
i do realize that not everybody is a navy seal, delta force operator, or military special forces trained in language, espionage, and handgun training, but these people can do anything with a pistol that most civilian shooters cannot do with a long gun...so in the right hands, a pistol is the most perfect killing machine ever invented...part of that equation is that a pistol allows you to get very close to your target...realize that a lot of the military special forces, and all branches have them whether it's common knowledge or not, dress in civilian clothes most of the time (like the military base where i live) and often have the pistol as their only weapon becuase these people go undercover and need to get close to their targets
and with the us military playing a more peacekeeping and international law enforcement role in today's terrorist ridden world, being undercover (like a vice cop going deep cover) is more and more a function of the military and the lines have blurred in this decade especially
america's enemy is not your typical leader in a specific geographical position with borders and a standing army...but ok some say iraq is an enemy but i have reservations about bush's strategy in iraq exactly the same way as stated by BOTH hilary clinton and newt gingrich (imagine that), but our enemy is more likely to be a terrorist/criminal working within our borders, dipping in and out of the usa at will, and using illegal drug trade as a means of funding...this is where the line blurs when the military has to deal with them in the special forces arena
now if you want to get to perfect killing machines, then yes, weapons of mass destruction are the way to go and chemical and biological weapons, as well as conventional expolsives are powerful, yet insdiscriminate killers of everybody in sight...friend and foe...but in the case of the military and police, it's not the best weapon to achieve most military and police objectives
i wish you could have met some of the people i have come to have known through my past job, or thru the special military language school, or through the college i went to which trained many military officers to get advanced degrees...and basically chewed the fat with them...and you might have come away with a different view of handguns and their ability to kill so perfectly in the hands of someone with the right training
there are instances, in one case, where i can't imagine the use of handguns, and that would be an officer in the us air force
but when i met this man, he was a captain going to the language school and it turned out he was in military intelligence and was training to speak in either russian or arabic
but when i went over to his house, i saw the typical things on his desk wall, college diploma, air force officer's stuff, but there was this one strange plaque on the wall which seemed out of place...special handgun training...actually some of the people in his specialty worked to weed out certain espionage within the ranks of the us military and this is not something he would want to advertise on his uniform...it would be as obvious as a cop in internal affairs wearing a patch that said, "breaking the blue wall of silence - internal affairs"...he he
i asked him why he had that plaque and he very non chalantly said, sometimes he may be asked to go deep cover and if need be, he might need to defend himself with a hand gun and kill people
it was when i talked to him many years ago then that i realized the purpose of some in the military, and of that special handgun course...and suddenly a handgun did not seem to be a smaller all purpose rifle, but a specialized firearm designed to kill people and to do it a close range
plus the conceability...why do you think, just for sake of argument, that these two military intelligence related school near me have their soldiers routinely dress in civilian clothes?