NYT - Who's a Jew? Interesting UK SC Case

Discussion in 'Politics, Religion, Social Issues' started by mkrishnan, Nov 9, 2009.

  1. mkrishnan Moderator emeritus

    mkrishnan

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    #1
    Just an interesting court case regarding race, faith, and faith-based or faith-endowed education....

    http://www.nytimes.com/2009/11/08/world/europe/08britain.html?em=&pagewanted=all

     
  2. Queso macrumors G4

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    #2
    Easy one to fix. Ban religious schools.

    Tony Blair has a lot to answer to for turning this particular clock backwards. Tosspot :mad:
     
  3. yg17 macrumors G5

    yg17

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    #3
    It should be so simple. If you believe in the teachings of Judaism and practice it, you're a Jew, regardless of what your parents are.

    Both my parents are Jewish, and I'm still considered a Jew by the religion even though I think that the religious beliefs are a bunch of fabricated BS.

    I realize there's an ethnic component in play here, and despite my beliefs, I will always be an ethnic Jew as you can't change your ethnicity, but if it's a religious school, then they should be concerend with the person's religious beliefs, not ethnic background.

    I could theoretically be accepted into this school since both parents are Jewish. Now, would they rather have me, a "Jew" who is Atheist and thinks all religion is a bunch of BS, or someone who believes in and practices Judaism but doesn't have a Jewish mother?

    That's a better idea
     
  4. mkrishnan thread starter Moderator emeritus

    mkrishnan

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    #4
    I believe this 2006 law that allows schools to favor students of their own faith comes from the Blair era, but did the UK not have parochial education before Tony Blair?

    The 2006 law itself seems somewhat problematic -- we certainly have similar problems in the US also.
     
  5. barkomatic macrumors 68040

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    The fact that religious school are funded with public funds is the problem here--a big mistake in policy IMO. What a mess.
     
  6. iShater macrumors 604

    iShater

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    Hasn't this been a debate for a very long time? sounds it was the first time it was actually challenged in court.
     
  7. mkrishnan thread starter Moderator emeritus

    mkrishnan

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    #7
    I know it has in the US, although I don't know how much case law there is here (in a more general sense, we have talked lots about schools and whom they can limit in attendance). Israel has gone to lots of lengths to provide its standards for measuring Judaicism as well...

    I don't know too much about UK law. The logic here -- that a test of belonging to a religion ought not be "genetic," and thereby cannot involve one's parent's choices as supercedent to one's own -- seems very reasonable.
     
  8. yg17 macrumors G5

    yg17

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    When has this been brought up in the US? Given the fact that there are no public religious schools, just private ones, I would think they could admit students based on whatever criteria they want without worrying about legal issues.
     
  9. mkrishnan thread starter Moderator emeritus

    mkrishnan

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    #9
    Well, there's been discussion of giving public funds to private schools on numerous occasions, even if there are no "public religious schools." And at least some US anti-discrimination law applies to private schools that receive federal funding (ref).
     
  10. iShater macrumors 604

    iShater

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    I was referring to what defines a Jew. I have a friend who converted in a reform Synagogue, she is not considered Jewish by the Orthodox ones. Also, race wise, if your mother is Jewish then you are considered Jewish has been the test I believe.

    So this issue's legality has not been brought up, but the discussion has been.
     
  11. Shivetya macrumors 65816

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    Banning public schools might do our students better.
     
  12. yg17 macrumors G5

    yg17

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    #12
    I went to an excellent public high school, an excellent public university, and landed an excellent job upon graduation. I'm so sick of this "Let's close the public schools!" nonsense because a small handful of them do poorly.
     
  13. mkrishnan thread starter Moderator emeritus

    mkrishnan

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    #13
    Yeah, sigh. My undergraduate institution (a state school) is consistently at the top of the field I majored in (and many others), and my graduate program (at another state school) is generally recognized as the best in my specialty anywhere, period.
     
  14. Queso macrumors G4

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    You are free to lobby for whatever you want to...in your country, but this thread is about the UK where universal education is considered one of the tenets of our society.

    Along of course with universal healthcare, but I'm sure you're one of those that believe we use the NHS to kill grandmothers or the like.
     
  15. Bill Gates macrumors 68020

    Bill Gates

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    The matter is rather simple. Someone who believes in and practices Judaism but that does not have a Jewish mother is not a Jew, and therefore would not and should not be admitted under the school's admission policy. If an individual is at a level where he is practicing Judaism and only Judaism, then he should go ahead and convert.

    By the religion, any children born to a Jewish woman are Jewish as well. If someone converts, there is a standard that has to be met, and that standard varies from one stream of Judaism to another. The problem for many is that reform Judaism has relaxed that standard so much that for the more traditional streams many of it's members aren't even Jewish. For example, the reform movement accepts patrilineal descent, doesn't require circumcision, accepts intermarriage (they will perform an interfaith wedding), and doesn't accept Judaism as binding, i.e., it can be revoked through conversion, denunciation, etc.; there are too many differences to list concisely here. Each stream observes a little more as you move up the hierarchy of orthodoxy.

    From an ethnic perspective, anyone with blood-ties to the Jewish people through descent is partially Jewish, but that is completely distinct from the religion and not at all relevant to it. Judaism has historically been indifferent to one's ethnic background before conversion, considering any converts fully Jewish. Identifying as "part-Jewish" is a more recent phenomenon that has resulted from assimilation and individuals' desire to identify with the background of a Jewish parent or grandparent.
     
  16. Zombie Acorn macrumors 65816

    Zombie Acorn

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    Anyone who converts should be allowed in the school, racism is rampant enough without this crap. Jewish people are by and large some of the most racist people I have met without being called out on it.
     
  17. yg17 macrumors G5

    yg17

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    Uh, what? Have any proof of that? :rolleyes:
     
  18. Bill Gates macrumors 68020

    Bill Gates

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    Any proof or anecdotal evidence?
     
  19. Zombie Acorn macrumors 65816

    Zombie Acorn

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    #19
    Observation. Their families push "intraracial" dating harder than any other race I have came in contact with.

    My observations, plus the fact that jewish/indians are some of the least likely to marry outside of their own race.
     
  20. yg17 macrumors G5

    yg17

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    #20
    Anecdotal evidence is not proof. And post some facts to back up your claim about Jews being least likely to marry outside their own race.
     
  21. Bill Gates macrumors 68020

    Bill Gates

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    Opposition to intermarriage has nothing to do with racism and everything to do with survival. Post something more in-depth and I'll respond in the same fashion.
     
  22. Zombie Acorn macrumors 65816

    Zombie Acorn

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    #22
    Survival? Its the 21st century.

    http://www.alternet.org/world/142478/israeli_government_ads_warn_against_marrying_non-jews_/

    http://www.examiner.com/x-7312-Miam...-disowned-for-marrying-outside-their-religion

    Its almost too easy, do a google search..

    Most of my jewish friends weren't themselves racist, but their parents were which rubbed off on quite a few of them as they wouldn't tell their parents if they were dating outside of their race. Most of them had a sentiment that once they "settle down" it should be with a jewish person.
     
  23. Bill Gates macrumors 68020

    Bill Gates

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    You haven't posted anything contradictory to my point. Intermarried couples more often than not abandon Judaism, and their children are not raised in Judaism, even when the mother is Jewish. I don't see any evidence of racism, only evidence of a desire for successive generations to continue practicing Judaism, a la survival.
     
  24. Zombie Acorn macrumors 65816

    Zombie Acorn

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    #24
    You are using religion as a veil for racism. it reminds me of the guy the UK people were talking about who wanted to perpetuate a "true brits" aka white instead of minorities
     
  25. yg17 macrumors G5

    yg17

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    #25
    My sister is Jewish. She just got married last week to someone who is not Jewish. My Jewish parents didn't have a problem with it, never did. When they first started dating, his Christian parents did have a problem with it. Ergo, based on anecdotal evidence, I can conclude that Jews are not racist and Christians are :rolleyes:
     

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