Obama: Legalize immigrants to cover them with insurance

Discussion in 'Politics, Religion, Social Issues' started by chrmjenkins, Sep 18, 2009.

  1. chrmjenkins macrumors 603

    chrmjenkins

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    #1
    http://washingtontimes.com/news/2009/sep/18/obama-ties-immigration-to-health-care-battle/

    I have often felt it ludicrous to think that a plan deporting the approximately 12 million workers already here is justified because our system provides financial incentives to businesses that can hire them. If we want to have serious reform, we need to work on making the ones here taxpayers and make it to where businesses would incur no benefit for hiring new illegals. It seems more logical to me to remove the incentive to come here as opposed to building bigger fences in hopes they work.

    However, trying to accomplish two goals at once, neither of which is an easy-sell, is likely too large of a task for any President. Thoughts?
     
  2. leekohler macrumors G5

    leekohler

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    #2
    Didn't work for Bush, won't work for Obama either. Illegal immigration is a very contentious topic. Most people are strongly against it, AFAIK.
     
  3. oculus42 macrumors 6502

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    #3
    There's an extrapolation between saying "we need to solve this problem" and "Obama wants amnesty for all illegal immigrants."

    Just saying.
     
  4. jav6454 macrumors P6

    jav6454

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    #4
    Don't legalize all illegals. That would just be plain wrong. Some of them know about the holes in the US system and if they be legal, they dam sure exploit them (like Food Stamp program) under the legal protection.

    The argument make is to legalize the ones that have proof of living here since a determined amount of years (say 9 at minimum), have a stable household (single or married), proof of a job or jobs or simply proof that they have been actively working (if unemployed give how much they have worked continuously before being fired), and have a clean (no serious charges) criminal record.

    Those that qualify for above are in my opinion the best candidates to make legal immigrants. Why? Simply because the qualifications above mean that they are here to live well and if you are given benefits they will correctly use them and will pay the system supporting them (ie Taxes).

    On a funny note, Rep Congressman Wilson was sorta of right with his "You lie" remark.
     
  5. thegoldenmackid macrumors 604

    thegoldenmackid

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    #5
    It won't happen...next. If it did, Obama would go down as a president with just epic Political Capital.
     
  6. leekohler macrumors G5

    leekohler

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    #6
    Not really. If someone is here legally, then they aren't illegal.
     
  7. chrmjenkins thread starter macrumors 603

    chrmjenkins

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    #7
    No one implied he said that. Obama is smart enough to not make a comment that could be extrapolated like that.

    And this would be different than the legals exploiting the system? How can you be sure who would do it?
     
  8. Zombie Acorn macrumors 65816

    Zombie Acorn

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    #8
    You have to penalize employers higher than what they can take back from hiring the illegals to start with. They say time is money, give them a year minimum if caught hiring illegally.

    We have a 10% unemployment rate, that doesn't include illegal workers. If you are telling me that Americans won't do these jobs when their family is hungry I will tell you that you are full of crap.
     
  9. leekohler macrumors G5

    leekohler

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    #9
    Agreed- amnesty is extremely unpopular. I don't see this going anywhere.
     
  10. abijnk macrumors 68040

    abijnk

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    #10
    No body said that.

    Um, how?
     
  11. Zombie Acorn macrumors 65816

    Zombie Acorn

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    #11
    If he grants blanket amnesty to the illegals that we weren't covering I would agree, and it would be the downfall of his presidency.
     
  12. jav6454 macrumors P6

    jav6454

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    #12
    Obama is trying to make them legal to go into the program, it's a bypass, but in the end they are getting covered.
     
  13. chrmjenkins thread starter macrumors 603

    chrmjenkins

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    #13
    And they are also legal, tax-paying citizens in the process before they ever get health-coverage. The whole point of this new healthcare program is to leave no one out so that we don't have people misusing the system and going to the emergency room, making costs much higher than they would be. Even with this system in place, illegals will still be here, and they'll still be showing up in those emergency rooms. They will still be failing to pay tax dollars that support that system. So, you have a choice. Spend the time, resources and money to deport them, or make them legal and tax-paying.
     
  14. leekohler macrumors G5

    leekohler

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    #14
    It's still not covering illegal immigrants.
     
  15. kavika411 macrumors 6502a

    kavika411

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    #15
    Bush's name mentioned in the first reply, in less than five words. That's got to be a record, even for Lee. ;)

    That aside, I give better odds of Acorn lasting into October than of Obama going down this path. Political suicide.
     
  16. Zombie Acorn macrumors 65816

    Zombie Acorn

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    #16
    Im not going to eat any red apples.

    *paints the red apple green*

    see.
     
  17. fivepoint macrumors 65816

    fivepoint

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    #17
    :) And I'd say anyone who said they weren't going to eat any red apples, and just painted one green and ate it... would most certainly be a LIAR.
     
  18. chrmjenkins thread starter macrumors 603

    chrmjenkins

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    #18
    OK, so If I'm following your analogy, the illegals are simply labeled "legal", have had no official paperwork submitted regarding their status, and most certainly won't be paying taxes. After all, we're talking superficial only. Yeah, I'm sure that's exactly how the plan will go forward.
     
  19. Zombie Acorn macrumors 65816

    Zombie Acorn

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    #19
    Its a bait and switch. America is against granting amnesty to people who broke the law to be here. To say we won't offer illegal immigrants health insurance and then to grant amnesty and offer them insurance is dishonest at best. He can go ahead and try it though, I am not sure who the republicans are putting up in 2012 but it won't take much.
     
  20. kavika411 macrumors 6502a

    kavika411

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    #20
    I assume you are talking about income taxes. If so, I see your point: this newly legalized population would fall squarely into an income tax paying bracket, as opposed to an income level that does not in fact pay income taxes.
     
  21. chrmjenkins thread starter macrumors 603

    chrmjenkins

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    #21
    It's only a bait and switch if the official plan was to let immigration persist precisely as it does, with illegals continuing to work unchecked. It is acknowledged by a striking majority that some sort of reform needs to take place. Deporting every single one of the estimated 12 million immigrants is not feasible. Therefore, it stands to reason that at least some of them will be allowed to enter a process to make them legal (again, he has said nothing about granting amnesty). If the health care reform he wants passes, it stands to reason that these new legal citizens will be a part of it, since their tax dollars go toward it. Him acknowledging this fact is not surprising. What is surprising is that he did it publicly.

    Should they fall in that level, they're no different than the low-income Americans who already fit in this category. If we're willing to cover those Americans, it is logical we would cover these people as well. Besides, we're not magically inventing costs. These illegal immigrants still get sick and still show up at hospitals and receive care. That money has to come from somewhere.
     
  22. Zombie Acorn macrumors 65816

    Zombie Acorn

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    #22
    We don't need to deport them. Penalize the business owners with jail time for hiring illegal aliens, problem solved. +10 reputation points from the public for Obama at the same time.
     
  23. chrmjenkins thread starter macrumors 603

    chrmjenkins

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    #23
    Sure. I can see that going down well:

    "I'm going to rectify the situation by putting a business owner who contributed to the economy in jail on your tax dollar dime." Penalize them with fines. Our jail system is strained as-is. That's the problem with having laws you don't enforce. You can't enforce laws you chose not to before without it causing public backlash and having its own economic repercussions.
     
  24. nbs2 macrumors 68030

    nbs2

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    #24
    Before this is settled, we need to figure out how the legalization process would work - is it a grandfathering or will there be a continual process.

    Obama's statement - "I will not eat red apples"
    Wilson's reort - "Liar"

    If grandfathering, you have an issue of "I'll eat the ones that I already have."

    If continually permitting illegals to legalize, then it is "Well, these apples look red, but they are really burgandy, and that's a different color. We must make that distinction."

    OK. I know it's not the best analogy, but I am so ready for the weekend. Either way, Yes, on it's face, Obama's statement is valid - that he won't cover illegals - but by granting amnesty, he achieves the goal through an end around.

    Another question is what happens as this would be a reward for beating whatever deadline is imposed (because I'm guessing that it isn't going to be a retroactive deadline - are you really going to exclude people already here?).

    Do I think the statement matters? No - it's political suicide if he does it. What he gains in Hispanic swing voters, will easily outweigh the hit he takes in anti-Obama voters (who were already anti-Obama anyway). I am not totally familiar with his historic stance on immigration, but I'm guessing that he was already supportive of some sort of amnesty program - meaning that those who were single issue on that point were already lost to him.

    Question - I don't have citations handy, but I do recall hearing that illegals have been leaving the US rather steadily since the economy went down the toilet - it's just too expensive to stay here. For the discussion on how to cull the number if illegals, the combination of strengthened Mexican and weakened American economies along with high costs of living in the US seem to be a better deterrent than deportation/fines/walls/border patrol. Trashing your house really is the most effective route (maybe Jeff Goldblums drunken tirade was right, nuking the planet would have made the aliens go away).
     
  25. chrmjenkins thread starter macrumors 603

    chrmjenkins

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    #25
    One of the main objections against illegals is that they are not tax-paying citizens, and thus do not contribute to society. By legalizing them, you aren't re-branding them superficially, you're rectifying the legitimate concern many people have. The real concern is not whether or not he is lying, it's who should be allowed to be legalized. The only way you can take a hard-line on him using this to get healthcare to illegals is if you assert that illegals should never be allowed to have healthcare, regardless of status. As it stands, Obama introduced no conditions or timelines, so any conjecture that he is lying is reading into the statement. It's not an end-around, it's an acknowledgment of facts and refutation of the absolute "Those who were illegal at one time should never be allowed healthcare."
     

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