Obama's Failures Toward the Chinese Come to Light

Discussion in 'Politics, Religion, Social Issues' started by smallcoffee, May 20, 2017.

  1. smallcoffee macrumors 6502a

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    #1
    Saw this on another forum so wanted to cross post

    Any ideas why this happened? Why has the US become so incompetent? Both trade and military secrets are being/have been/stolen, but what has the US done about it? Anything?
     
  2. Rigby macrumors 601

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    #2
    Did you read the article you linked? It says that "China’s success in identifying C.I.A. agents had been blunted" by 2013. I'm sure you'll now open a thread about "Obama's successes toward the Chinese"?
     
  3. smallcoffee thread starter macrumors 6502a

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    #3
    Why would I do that? It appears he has largely failed here. "Chinese success in identifying agents had been blunted" doesn't bring back the lives of those caught, or the trade secrets that were stolen under his watch.
     
  4. vrDrew macrumors 65816

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    #4
    Do you think Barack Obama was responsible for running background checks and daily operational security at the CIA?

    If you want to have a serious discussion - fine. But politicizing this, in the title, suggests to me that you aren't really interested in that.
     
  5. smallcoffee thread starter macrumors 6502a

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    Well, yeah, as much as it is for any other leader in any other discussion to ever be had. Let's say, under Trump's leadership (or whoever just using him here because current) bad thing xyz happens at ABC federal agency. Does the buck stop with him, or is he "not responsible" ?

    To me, it seems like these are substantial operational failures.

    In what way is it political?
     
  6. LizKat macrumors 68040

    LizKat

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    Of all the things one might blame Obama for, this certainly doesn’t seem to be something with clearcut boundaries inside his administration. It can take years to build a spy network not meant for some specific, transient task. In fact when a country hasn’t a network and experiences an urgent need for such intelligence capability, it may opt to cut deals with an ally to, in effect, BORROW a functional network. Years may also be needed to identify a network and take it down.

    The workings of the CIA and of course those of other countries persist across administrations of successive American presidents. The CIA director serves at the President’s pleasure, yes. But whatever were the seeds of the destruction of that network, whether via betrayal from within or detection abroad, there seems nothing past the 2010 date in that report to suggest that Obama’s administration had anything to do with the commencement of China’s dismantling effort.

    One may wonder what caused this piece to be published at this particular time. It says that “ten current and former American officials” described the investigation of the matter to the Times, but past that I see no particular indication of why today is when it turns up in the paper.

    Always fascinating to wonder about this stuff. Something shifted somewhere, and a piece fell into place or an obstacle was removed. Why did someone at the NYT said ok go with it, or did someone at the FBI or CIA stop asking them not to print it?

    It is also interesting that for the record, current FBI and CIA officials have no comment. That doesn’t mean the piece wasn’t run by them before we saw it, of course. And there’s no way to know if the Times left out anything they were asked to, or included anything they felt confident in printing despite off the record denials by the current agencies.
     
  7. juanm macrumors 65816

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    No, I doubt anyone reasonable would hold Trump responsible for that either unless he specifically asked for it against the opinion of his advisors, or if he decided to cut funding, tweet about it, or anything like that.

    Your straw man is strong.
     
  8. sorcery macrumors regular

    sorcery

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    #8
    Not necessarily a mole. Only takes one slip in tradecraft or communications to betray an entire network.
    Our open borders, in the west, give foreign agencies an advantage.
    CIA seems to be better at regime change than covert intel gathering. For a number of reasons.
     
  9. ChrisWB macrumors 6502

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    #9
    How can any fault in this be attributed to Obama? Do you believe that he was involved in the logistics of the CIA's operations?
     
  10. smallcoffee thread starter macrumors 6502a

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    #10
    As leadership goes, you're responsible for what those in your organization do.
     
  11. juanm macrumors 65816

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    Experience being one of the reasons.
     
  12. LizKat macrumors 68040

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    #12
    Good grief. Yes, if you realized for instance that the USDA seemed to have decided hey we haven't had a serious e coli outbreak in years so let's not inspect beef slaughter any more... yeah, you could probably hang that one on a particular administration in effect at the time the next regularly scheduled USDA beef inspection had failed to materialize, once the failure came to light and was investigated.

    But to create a clickbait thread title that blames a President for another country's takedown of one of our spy networks seems just beyond the pale to me, unless you have concrete evidence putting Barack Obama’s administration specifically at fault for compromising the network.

    Don’t confuse our awareness in 2010 of deteriorating performance of the network with the date on which some incident afforded the Chinese an opportunity to confirm existence of that network, start to identify members, locate them, remove them. We don’t know that date.

    We don't know what triggered that network breakdown (yet, or maybe ever).

    Your thread title amounts to partisan trolling. You should edit it, actually. Sure the article contains info that can make for an interesting discussion. It's not a piece that supports your summation of it per the thread title you chose.
     
  13. Eraserhead macrumors G4

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    #13
    Good god.
     
  14. thekev macrumors 604

    thekev

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    #14
    This was more of a move on the part of the Chinese government. You might take note that we wouldn't generally accept many of the things that we do to other countries being done against our own.
     
  15. steve knight macrumors 68020

    steve knight

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    #15
    well hell thats good news about trump then huh?
     
  16. jerwin macrumors 65816

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    #16
     
  17. ChrisWB macrumors 6502

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    I don't have an answer to this, because it's a ridiculous standard.
     
  18. Peace macrumors Core

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    #18
    So we can go ahead and impeach Trump because of Flynn ?
     
  19. smallcoffee thread starter macrumors 6502a

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    #19
    Sure idc. Then you get a united Republican Party under Pence. ;)
     
  20. mudslag macrumors regular

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    #20

    Not even close, it would be the Republican party that would be needed to impeach him considering they have control of Congress. There is a reason the GOP is not coming out against Trump but at the same time support for him is dropping within the party as less and less can back the circus that is the WH. That would piss off Trump's hard core base who would end up blaming the GOP. The GOP knows not to ruffle any feathers til after 2018, to hold on to what they can.
     
  21. smallcoffee thread starter macrumors 6502a

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    #21
    Yeah I don't really care. If they are going to impeach him (Ala, the OP to my quote) then they get Pence. Your comment is irrelevant.
     
  22. LizKat macrumors 68040

    LizKat

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    #22
    You could be right on their motives but it's as wrongheaded as their not having rolled up sleeves and steamrolled Trump out of the nomination last summer. Fear of the base, fear of the dwindling base... the base that complicates their legislative agendas, duh. They're going to die as a party while fondling their last 43 diehard supporters...
     
  23. Peace macrumors Core

    Peace

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    #23
    You guys do realize these "CIA operatives" were mostly Chinese informants right ?
     
  24. LizKat macrumors 68040

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    #24
    Likely. But how does that make the Chinese government's destruction of the CIA's network any more or less "Obama's fault" ... are we saying one of the informants in the network changed his mind and doubled back to inform the Chinese? Even if that was the case, that doesn't make the loss Obama's fault; it could have happened at any time. It's part of the inherent risk of using human beings to gather intelligence. They can turn, or they can be exposed somehow.

    That it happened on hiw watch is true. How and when it became possible for the network to get trashed, we apparently don't know even now.
     
  25. mudslag macrumors regular

    mudslag

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    #25

    My comment is relevant to the point that was being made. Not liking it doesn't make it any less relevant.
    --- Post Merged, May 20, 2017 ---


    That is the problem with Washington, they are more concerned about keeping their jobs then doing the right thing.
     

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