On Rejections and Denounciations...

Discussion in 'Politics, Religion, Social Issues' started by mactastic, Mar 1, 2008.

  1. mactastic macrumors 68040

    mactastic

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    #1
    So there was a dust-up this past week on a charge by Hillary Clinton that denouncing the views expressed by Louis Farrakahn (who was given some kind of award by the pastor of the church Obama attends) was not enough. Obama also needed to reject those views. Or maybe it was the other way around. Whatever. Clinton was trying to score some points by bringing up what has been one of the many oft-used smears by the right against Obama -- that because someone Obama knows thought Farrakahn is a groovy kind of guy, Obama obviously shares these views. Obama has repeatedly denied that he shares the views of Farrakahn, and that he rejects (or denounces) Farrakahn's views. But this smear gets repeated. Guilt by association, but that association is at least one degree away.

    Which brings us to John McCain. McCain, who as we all know is hurting among the hard-core Republic base, recently accepted the endorsement of one John Hagee. No degree of separation here, this man endorsed McCain in McCain's presence. Hagee is best known for his hateful anti-Catholic views, but is not limited to hatred of that group. No, he also spews vitriol at Jews, gays, atheists, Muslims and others. In short, he is easily a white Farrakahn. He is also an end-timer. He believes that we are the final generation before the return of Christ, and that the Bible says that Russia will team up with some of the nations of the Middle East to attack Israel, that there will be a glorious battle between US forces and these Russian/Muslim forces, and that the battle will result in the return of Jesus Christ to earth to usher in 1000 years of peace. He also believes US foreign policy should work to encourage these events.

    Will McCain denounce and reject this man's views? If he doesn't, he's in for a rough ride, even from folks like Bill Donohue. If he does, he's seen as weak by the hard core base. So it seems he trying to walk a middle line by saying he doesn't agree with all of Hagee's views (but notably doesn't say exactly which views he doesn't agree with) while still accepting Hagee's endorsement.

    Can we all imagine the bloviating that would be going on in right-blogistan if Obama had said that while he doesn't agree with all of Farrakahn's views, he still accepted a proffered endorsement?
     
  2. stevento macrumors 6502

    stevento

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    #2
    republicans are nuts huh? lol jk
     
  3. ham_man macrumors 68020

    ham_man

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    #3
    The persecution complex is strong in this one Obi-Wan...
     
  4. skunk macrumors G4

    skunk

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    #4
    Is that your answer? :confused:
     
  5. Desertrat macrumors newbie

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    #5
    While I follow your point, I can only observe that with eight more months to go before Selection Day, that Ultimate Chooseday in November, we will see/hear/read plenty of bloviating.

    One thing for sure: Hagee's endorsement of McCain doesn't set my little heart to palpitating, although it's logical that he'd not endorse either Democrat. I'm just guessing, but it well could be that McCain's advisors might think that Hagee has more followers than Farrakhan and they're scared. If Obama's folks aren't impressed by Farrakhan's strength, there's little risk in denying him.

    Since I have little use for any of the Trivial Trio, I avoid bloviation in any direction from any group to the greatest extent possible.

    'Rat
     
  6. SMM macrumors 65816

    SMM

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    #6
    I once found a masters thesis, or dissertation, dealing with the various psychological profiles of many of the well-known ministers. The paper dealt with a very broad spectrum of individuals I recognized, and many I did not. It was also technical in nature and sometimes difficult to follow.

    The author broke the profiles into several categories (technical terms substituted):

    1) Those who had a need to control others
    2) Those who are deathly afraid of their mortality and needed to have the support of others
    3) Those who are consumed by anger and need a venue to feed their fanaticism
    4) Those who are consumed by self-guilt and needed a venue to 'confess'
    5) Those who are strictly charlatans and use religion to gain financial reward

    He discussed the profile of each group, and then he went through his list and described how their behavior assigned them to one, or more, group(s). Some of the names I remember him discussing were Billy Graham, Jim Jones, Jimmy Swaggert, Kenneth Copeland, Jim Baker, Benny Hinn and John Hagee.

    I did not know who Hagee was and would have just dismissed the references about him, but the author told an interesting (comical actually) anecdote about him. Hagee lights up the psychological Christmas tree. He is a man consumed by hatred. Through research, the author discovered what the possible reason is.

    On the Hagee church/compound, there are recreational amenities, including a swimming pool, with showers, lockers, etc. Hagee has his own private changing room/shower, and no one is allowed to enter it. However, one member needed to contact him with some urgency, so he caught Hagee wearing nothing except his stretch marks. He stood there in shock, because the good reverend was 'hung like a squirrel'; non-existent. Hagee was livid with rage. After dressing he confronted the man and threatened him physically if he ever mentioned a thing about what he saw (or did not see in this case). The man foolishly attempted to console him, saying "We all receive what the lord gives us". This sent Hagee into another rage, where he was barely able to get more out of his frothing lips than, "**** the Lord".

    Needless to say, the administrator did not see a bright career working for Hagee and left his position. He later told this story, but it was not picked up by anyone except a couple fringe outlets. The author made several references to other famous men who also suffer great mental anguish over this. Usually it results in insecurity, low self-esteem and over-compensation. The author wrote that there were numerous books and papers written about the results when anger becomes the chosen tool to deal with this.

    Every once in awhile I will watch a few minutes of TBN. Mainly I am looking to see how brazen the neocons have become. If Hagee is on, I think back to the paper I have been writing about. You can see the anger and hatred barely being contained. I feel sorry for him.
     
  7. Desertrat macrumors newbie

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    #7
    SMM, I've always found these creatures who so strongly proclaim, "I know THE truth, and I'm the only one who does!" to be egregiously repellent to me. However, fervent belief in a political ideology is no different from a fervent belief in some form of religion insofar as behavior is concerned.

    The behavior in religious fervor which gave us such things as the Inquistion or the Jihad carries over into ideological fervor; look what Karl Marx started. The behavior is no different.

    I guess I've always been fortunate. For every Hagee there are a hundred or more live-and-let-live preachers with that quiet faith that engenders respect. I've met far more of this latter group.

    'Rat
     
  8. SMM macrumors 65816

    SMM

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    #8
    Rat - I am pretty much a civil libertarian and would generally support the rights of anyone trying to live life as they see fit. That is especially true when I see government, or splinter groups, threatening those rights. Probably the best example I can think of is the current struggle the gay community faces, just trying to gain equal status.

    Why should they have to defend themselves, just to obtain what the rest of us take for granted? Yet, it is mainly pressure from fundamentalist christian groups which causes the discrimination against them. It just is not right. There are protestant sects who not only accept them, but have gays holding very high positions in their Church.

    Getting to your point, look at the difference between Bill Moyers and John Hagee. Most people do not know that Bill Moyers is a Methodist minister. And I have the upmost respect for him. To me, he exemplifies all of the characteristics of what living a christian life should be about. Hagee (Fallwell, Robertson and that ilk), do not seem to have a clue. Your comment about "For every Hagee there are a hundred or more live-and-let-live preachers....." is spot on. Tens of thousands of churches/ministers just go about their business quietly. It is unfortunate that the extremists are the ones who get the publicity.
     
  9. mactastic thread starter macrumors 68040

    mactastic

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    #9
    :D You've been saving that one I see.

    Ah well, they say imitation is the sincerest form of flattery.

    Of course we will. But will that bloviating include a demand for both Obama and McCain to reject the "agents of intolerance"? My guess is that McCain doesn't face as big of a backlash because no one outside "the base" knows who Hagee is. Democrats haven't done as good a job demonizing Hagee as the right has done to demonize Farrakahn. Farrakanh's been around a good bit longer, so that probably helps too.

    I'm guessing there's precious little about McCain that sets your little heart to palpitating... :p

    No, McCain's advisors thought this would fly under the radar, is my guess. This guy does the "End Time" series. He's got quite a following.

    With the exception of El Rusbo, right? Or does he not count as a bloviator?
     
  10. solvs macrumors 603

    solvs

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    #10
    Uh, considering Obama was even asked the noted questions he was about Farrakahn (another good comment by Obama as a retaliation to Hillary trying to catch him BTW, and I find his honesty and not trying to dodge the question more engaging the more she does this) and has been criticized because of his middle name, I'd say it was a legitimate concern. ;)

    Bill Donohue of the Catholic League does, and he isn't happy... but he is very loud.
     
  11. Lyle macrumors 68000

    Lyle

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    #11
    I am a little out of the loop on this story, but based on what little I've heard about it, my problem is that Obama continues to attend this pastor's church.

    For one thing, as a Christian, I'm having trouble figuring out exactly what an Episcopalian minister would find award-worthy about the leader of the Nation of Islam. But setting that aside, I'm trying to imagine how I'd react if the pastor of my church did something equally out of left field, like emceeing the awards banquet for the local neo-nazi chapter. If the church membership didn't react first by getting rid of him, I'd be out of that church in a heartbeat, you know what I mean?

    And yet, as best I understand the story, Obama has not made a similar decision. Yes, he's denounced Farrakhan (which is good), but am I correct to understand he still attends this church? I don't get it. He's free to attend wherever he wants. But I just don't get it.

    I'm not familiar with Hagee and I'll take your word for it about his beliefs. Yes, that is absolutely not someone that McCain ought to be associating with or accepting an endorsement from, etc.
     
  12. Desertrat macrumors newbie

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    #12
    Well, mac, of course the MahaRushi bloviates! It's how he makes his living! :D Howsomever, in mild defense, not all he says is bloviation. All too often, folks write off opinions with which they don't agree as "bloviating".

    Shifting emphasis: There's gotta be some sort of psychological problem in anybody who'd spend the best part of two years trying for a job where at best, half your employers don't like you. :)

    'Rat
     
  13. mactastic thread starter macrumors 68040

    mactastic

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    #13
    The question isn't whether people such as Hagee and Farrakhan should be repudiated, of course they should, and Obama certainly has done so. Whether the award of a magazine started by the minister of your church is sufficient cause for separation from said chuch is, I suppose, between the churchgoer and God.

    The question is, will McCain denounce and reject Hagee, as Obama has done with Farrakhan? So far I've only heard McCain say that he doesn't necessarily agree with all of Hagee's views. Do you think that kind of response would be tolerated of Obama regarding Farrakhan?

    Hey, even a stopped clock is right twice a day.

    Indeed they do. But I'm sure you've never done anything like that.

    Now imagine how your mind has to be messed up to be the leader of an organization of whom 2/3 of it's members think you're doing a lousy job...
     
  14. Desertrat macrumors newbie

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    #14
    Er, uh, the only organization a President leads is the administrative branch. He's an elected representative of all the people, not a leader of some societal organization of people. Same sort of thing for all those Congressfolks. They're our representatives, not our leaders.

    They work for us, although not many of them seem to think that way. And, truth be known, too many in the populace look to them for leadership--which is leaning on weak props...

    'Rat
     
  15. mactastic thread starter macrumors 68040

    mactastic

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    #15
    Ok, so imagine the mental strain of working for an organization wherein 2/3 of your employers don't like you.

    If you want to argue semantics that is.
     
  16. geese macrumors 6502a

    geese

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    #16
    Do you really think Bush is that aware? I dont think he cares to be honest. His term is finishing, he's and his friends have got their dirty money, why is he bothered about popularity ratings?
     
  17. Desertrat macrumors newbie

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    #17
    Hey, geese, aren't all three presidential-hopeful leaders members of a group which has had lower popularity ratings than Dubya? Y'know, Congress?

    :D:D:D

    'Rat
     
  18. solvs macrumors 603

    solvs

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    #18
    That would be Congress as a whole. Counting both sides. When asked about the Dem side, they consistently get higher ratings than the GOP. Not to mention the fact that people like me don't like Congress right now, Dems included, because of what they aren't doing, not what they are. Namely, not stopping what Bush is and is trying to do.
     

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