"Once you're a Muslim, I don't think you can change"

Discussion in 'Politics, Religion, Social Issues' started by rdowns, Apr 20, 2011.

  1. rdowns macrumors Penryn


    Jul 11, 2003
    We have an ignorance problem in this country. Everything else is "superfloorious".

    Democratic Consultant + Video Camera + South Carolina Tea Party Rally = Oy

  2. eawmp1 macrumors 601


    Feb 19, 2008
    Those in power love this segment of society. This is the same reasons lawyers don't empanel thoughtful juries. 'Tis easier to sway feeble minds with emotion and fear, than present the truth.

  3. vipergts2207 macrumors 68000


    Apr 7, 2009
    Columbus, OH
    Consider that around 16% of the population is at least one standard deviation below what could be considered a normal IQ (85-115). This is a large gathering of those people. It's funny, but also scary and sad at the same time.
  4. yg17 macrumors G5


    Aug 1, 2004
    St. Louis, MO
    But I thought the Tea Party wasn't racist, it was just patriotic Americans concerned about spending!
  5. diamond.g macrumors 603


    Mar 20, 2007
  6. likemyorbs macrumors 68000


    Jul 20, 2008
    Interviewer: "Sir, where do you get most of your news?"
    Dumb redneck: "Well you can't get it from any of the media cuz you can't trust the media!"
    Interviewer: "So where do you get it?"
    Dumb redneck: "From my neighbor, he gets it off the internet!"
  7. arkitect macrumors 603


    Sep 5, 2005
    Bath, United Kingdom
    Well that was a good laugh. :D

    But surely those people are the looney fringe? Right?


  8. yg17 macrumors G5


    Aug 1, 2004
    St. Louis, MO
    Reminds me of a bumper sticker I saw the other day that said "I DON'T TRUST THE LIBERAL MEDIA!"

    So? I don't trust the conservative media, but you don't see me ruining my car's paint job with a sticker telling the world.

    I hope so.
  9. flopticalcube macrumors G4


    Sep 7, 2006
    In the velcro closure of America's Hat
    Are there any credible GOP Presidential alternatives that are popular? The sudden rise of The Donald is a bit disconcerting.
  10. edifyingGerbil macrumors regular

    Feb 13, 2011
    but it's the truth, once you are a muslim you can't change. islam says that apostates must be put to death.
  11. rdowns, Apr 20, 2011
    Last edited: Apr 20, 2011

    rdowns thread starter macrumors Penryn


    Jul 11, 2003

    I call it comedy gold. Noted birthers- Donald Trump and Charlie Sheen. He is on record as having a strong position that is completely opposite of every opinion he has adopted for this publicity stunt. Aside of his confidence, he's Palin with a dick.

    To be fair, the other side has ignorant voters too. Lots of them.
  12. flopticalcube macrumors G4


    Sep 7, 2006
    In the velcro closure of America's Hat
    Perhaps but at least their popular candidates appear more credible. I rather view Trump as a Palin sans testicles. :)
  13. CaoCao macrumors 6502a

    Jul 27, 2010
    Romney 2012 "Unlike the opposition I'm not insane or incompetant"
  14. Zaid macrumors 6502

    Feb 17, 2003
    It's not that simple. Muslims aren't a single group with a single opinion. For the record I was raised muslim, but have been atheist since my late teens. (Also I should mention I think the vast bulk of sharia law is load of bunk. There are some good things in it, but a whole load of crap too)

    From what I know, the opinions on apostasy within the Muslim community varies considerably.

    Some muslims do indeed believe that apostasy must be punished by death/imprisonment. This tends to correlate with very conservative(backward ) and fundamentalist beliefs and interpretations of Islam. Some less ****ed up conservatives believe that the family should shun apostates.

    Moderate and progressive muslims tend to believe that there should be no penalty for apostasy at all, since they tend to go on the idea that Islam is a personal relationship between you and your maker. (They may frown on it, they may try and 'talk some sense into you', but that's about it)

    The Quraan doesn't mention any penalties for the renunciation of Islam, and all opinions which do place any penalty come from two things that Mohammed is reported to have said. (These reports of the Prophets sayings are often quite dubious, especially when not backed up by the Quraan)
  15. Thomas Veil macrumors 68020

    Thomas Veil

    Feb 14, 2004
    OBJECTIVE reality
  16. edifyingGerbil macrumors regular

    Feb 13, 2011
    Unfortunately for you, it really is that simple. Whether you choose to believe it or not is more a reflection of your desperate desire for it to be otherwise than the veracity of my statement.

    in Sahih Bukhari, vol. 4, bk. 52, no. 260 (Sahih means sound, or authentic) it says:

    Narrated Ikrima: Ali burnt some people and this news reached Ibn 'Abbas, who said, "Had I been in his place I would not have burnt them, as the Prophet said, 'Don't punish (anybody) with Allah's Punishment.' No doubt, I would have killed them, for the Prophet said, 'If somebody (a Muslim) discards his religion, kill him.'

    Why does it matter what muhammad said? Because of the islamic principle of al-Insān al-Kāmil, translated roughly as "he who has reached perfection. Furthermore in the qur'an it says that muhammad is "uswa hasana" -- an excellent model of conduct (33:21) and that “he who obeys the Messenger [Muhammad], obeys Allah” (4:80).

    All schools of islamic jurisprudence (sunni and shi'ite) say that a sane adult male who leaves Islam must be killed, but they're not all in agreement with what must be done with a woman apostate.

    Here, don't just take my word for it, read what sheikh Yusuf al-Qaradawi has to say about it... He's quite a well known scholar on islamic law and as a muslim I'm sure he doesn't have that islamophobia bug that's going around.


    In islam the moderates are considered extremists, but we in the west think the moderates are a majority but they're really really not...

    In a recent poll 84% of Egyptians approved of the death penalty for apostates, in Pakistan it's 76% according to a Pew Poll from April 2010.

    Unfortunately for you and I and the rest of the world you're deeply deeply wrong...


    Lo! those who disbelieve after their (profession of) belief, and afterward grow violent in disbelief: their repentance will not be accepted. And such are those who are astray. Lo! those who disbelieve, and die in disbelief, the (whole) earth full of gold would not be accepted from such an one if it were offered as a ransom (for his soul). Theirs will be a painful doom and they will have no helpers. Qur'an 3:90-91

    They long that ye should disbelieve even as they disbelieve, that ye may be upon a level (with them). So choose not friends from them till they forsake their homes in the way of Allah; if they turn back (to enmity) then take them and kill them wherever ye find them, and choose no friend nor helper from among them. Qur'an 4:89

    O ye who believe! if any from among you turn back from his Faith, soon will Allah produce a people whom He will love as they will love Him,- lowly with the believers, mighty against the rejecters, fighting in the way of Allah, and never afraid of the reproaches of such as find fault. That is the grace of Allah, which He will bestow on whom He pleaseth. And Allah encompasseth all, and He knoweth all things. Qur'an 5:54

    But if they repent and keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate, they are your brethren in faith; and We make the communications clear for a people who know. And if they break their oaths after their agreement and (openly) revile your religion, then fight the leaders of unbelief-- surely their oaths are nothing-- so that they may desist. Qur'an 9:11-12

    Make ye no excuses: ye have rejected Faith after ye had accepted it. If We pardon some of you, We will punish others amongst you, for that they are in sin. Qur'an 9:66

    O Prophet! Strive against the disbelievers and the hypocrites! Be harsh with them. Their ultimate abode is hell, a hapless journey's end. They swear by Allah that they said nothing (wrong), yet they did say the word of disbelief, and did disbelieve after their Surrender (to Allah). And they purposed that which they could not attain, and they sought revenge only that Allah by His messenger should enrich them of His bounty. If they repent it will be better for them; and if they turn away, Allah will afflict them with a painful doom in the world and the Hereafter, and they have no protecting friend nor helper in the earth. Qur'an 9:73-74

    Therefore do remind, for you are only a reminder. You are not a watcher over them; But whoever turns back and disbelieves, Allah will chastise him with the greatest chastisement. Qur'an 88:21-24

    I forgot to add the qur'anic advocation for death to apostates. admittedly they say their punishment will be meted out by allah, but their is still a huge condemnation of it in qur'anic verses.
  17. Mr. Chewbacca macrumors 6502a

    Mr. Chewbacca

    Apr 27, 2010
    Dallas TX
    In many countries apostasy from the religion supported by the state is explicitly forbidden. This is largely the case in some states where Islam is the state religion; conversion to Islam is encouraged, conversion from Islam penalised.

    Iran – illegal (death penalty)[8][9][10]
    Egypt – illegal (death penalty)[10]
    Indonesia – illegal (death penalty)[10]
    Pakistan – illegal (death penalty[10] since 2007)
    United Arab Emirates – illegal (death penalty)[11]
    Somalia – illegal (death penalty)[12]
    Afghanistan – illegal (death penalty, although the U.S. and other coalition members have put pressure that has prevented recent executions[13][14])
    Saudi Arabia – illegal (death penalty, although there have been no recently reported executions)[15][10]
    Sudan – illegal (death penalty, although there have only been recent reports of torture, and not of execution[16])
    Qatar – illegal (death penalty)[17]
    Yemen – illegal (death penalty) [17]
    Malaysia – illegal in five of 13 states (fine, imprisonment, and flogging)[18][19]
    Mauritania – illegal (death penalty)[citation needed]
    Nigeria – illegal in twelve of 37 states (death penalty)[citation needed]
    Syria – possibly illegal (death penalty) although there is evidence to the contrary[20]
    But there are countries where it is different:

    Canada – legal (protected under Section Two of the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms)
    Netherlands – legal (protected under Article Six of the Constitution of the Kingdom of the Netherlands)
    United States – legal (protected under the First Amendment to the United States Constitution)(No official state religion recognised).
    India – legal. The Constitution of India allows freedom of religion. In some provinces, including Gujarat and Tamil Nadu, there are laws forbidding conversion in response to the methods used by some sects and religions for mass conversion, and the social tensions caused by conversion under these circumstances.[21]
    Philippines – legal (protected under Article III, Section 5 of the Philippine Constitution)
    Brazil – legal
  18. arkitect macrumors 603


    Sep 5, 2005
    Bath, United Kingdom
    Well nothing wrong with potatoes.
    But perhaps you were thinking of potatoe. ;)
  19. Huntn macrumors P6


    May 5, 2008
    The Misty Mountains
  20. iJohnHenry macrumors P6


    Mar 22, 2008
    On tenterhooks

    And hardly edifying.

    More like a commercial message.

    Oh, and welcome to MR. I fear I have failed to notice your approach.

    Not so, with Muslim Shira law.
  21. ender land macrumors 6502a

    Oct 26, 2010
    I am continually amazed at the absolute stupidity many people exhibit.

    Unfortunately, people like us play into it by giving the idiots attention :(
  22. edifyingGerbil macrumors regular

    Feb 13, 2011
    Why should you have noticed my approach, or is this your standard (and somewhat pretentious) greeting to people who dare venture into the community discussion boards?

    What do you mean "like a commercial message."? Are you being cryptic because you have no answers to any of the points I raised, thereby admitting defeat?

    Oh, and here, this might help you.

  23. iJohnHenry, Apr 21, 2011
    Last edited: Apr 21, 2011

    iJohnHenry macrumors P6


    Mar 22, 2008
    On tenterhooks
    Somewhat like the Blues Brothers, they are on a mission from Allah.

    It's up to free-thinkers, whether Atheist, Agnostic or Religious, to reject these incursions.

    Oh, we have a "player", do we. I usually leave these things for skunk to scavenge.

    I care not it you choose to venture into our little Apple community, but you should have been fore-warned that prose from some author long dead hardly carries any weight here.

    Mysticism is for PC users only. Sorry.
  24. edifyingGerbil macrumors regular

    Feb 13, 2011
    Great, so from those two statements we can conclude that you're pretentious, love seeing your own writing, and a sciolist. you also are probably suffering from mild hyperopia.

    Skunk aren't scavengers either.

    My last point is, you accused me of blather yet you do nothing but flit from thread to thread making pointless non-sequiters.

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